Interesting info and nice to get a simple honest reply from Facet.
I seem to recall something similar being posted up previously.

Phil

sent from my 'phone

 

I fitted a one on my RD03 and hated it instantly,

clattery,

heavy inrush current draw, ( so much the neutral light would dim as the pump clicked, ok, wiring on the RD03 is classic 1980s so may have added to this )

Replaced it with a new original design diaphragm, which give a smoother delivery and pressure. (I have the FET on the shelf to convert the points to a low current trigger and so make it last even longer than the 25year the last one managed :thumbup: )

I know there are folk who love them and have high mileages and no issue, and it is the recommended upgrade to remove the risk of the original failing,

but my view is carry a spare original style pump which is a straight swap, on your RTW or other adventure, rather than fixing something that is not broken yet


My 2p

 

Ive got one quite as a mouse from day 1 well that's until i run out of fuel

 

It's going on 9 years since I started the thread on the 40105 and it's installation and it has performed flawless since then....well at least for me and yes I've heard it clatter. It's rare...but
I've heard it. It's only when my tank is low and switching the petcock and it seems to go away. It also seems no worse for wear when it does happen and I've never felt it get hot nor have I seen fuel spew overboard from the carbs onto the ground. I'm not sure why your pump is always noisy Thomas.
Are you using OEM fuel delivery lines and fuel filter? Maybe it's time to buy one of those 40177 pumps Thomas and give it a test then report back. 1-2 psi does seem a bit on the low side. Funny that a Sales Manager from Facet reported back to you and not an engineer and interesting how he calls it a small engine. My 40105 is not broke yet...so until then.
cheers.

 

It's going on 9 years since I started the thread on the 40105 and it's installation and it has performed flawless since then....well at least for me and yes I've heard it clatter. It's rare...but
I've heard it. It's only when my tank is low and switching the petcock and it seems to go away. It also seems no worse for wear when it does happen and I've never felt it get hot nor have I seen fuel spew overboard from the carbs onto the ground. I'm not sure why your pump is always noisy Thomas.
Are you using OEM fuel delivery lines and fuel filter? Maybe it's time to buy one of those 40177 pumps Thomas and give it a test then report back. 1-2 psi does seem a bit on the low side. Funny that a Sales Manager from Facet reported back to you and not an engineer and interesting how he calls it a small engine. My 40105 is not broke yet...so until then.
cheers.

Yeah, I'm looking at getting the 40177, but I'm still asking myself why Rugged Roads would sells a pump that's so far from spec? 30 gallons pr hour?? ... Either way, it's been clattering more or less since I bought it. All I read was that this was normal, and that it's 'install and forget'. But it's been a huge stress factor, being on the bike in the middle of nowhere, and the pump sounds like it's ready to quit. I'm still not sure whether or not it's the reason the bike has been running bad for years, but recently I noticed that the bike starts to run poorly when the tank goes below half full. This is by coincidence the time where the pump starts to hammer loudly. It does make a bit of sense, doesn't it? I'm actually hoping it's the pump, because that would be very easy to fix, even though I would have to shell out even more money for yet another pump.

Does anyone know the specs of the original pump?

I'm not too concerned with the guys title, GSPD750. He could have asked an engineer. Besides, it's hardly rocket science, matching a pump for a given application ... I'm sure that in their world, it IS a small engine

 

I'm sure there was a comment a while ago that the replacement pump should have fuel shut off when not running, aparently not all Facets have this (prevents the carbs flooding from the head of fuel, if you have a leaky float valve).
Worth checking.

Phil

sent from my 'phone

 

Interesting. I've also got the pump that RR supplied. Seems this doesn't have a Check Valve or Positive Shut Off Valve fitted whereas the 40177 does. Thats rated at 7 GPH and 1 to 2 PSI.

However looking at the dimensions the 40105 is 2.9 inches long from end to end (where the fuel pipes go) and the 40177 is 3.39 inches long.

Check this site out for detailed info.

Cube Fuel-Pumps | Motor Components, LLC | Facet Purolator

 

I read on KTM board that for 950 Adventure it was recommend to use 40171 . Africa twin has even smaller engine , so it would make sense to use smaller pump to awoid flooding the carbs . I guess there's only way to find out . Let us know what results you get with 40177 .

 

the KTM uses the same mitubishi pump as the OEM Honda

 

I think I'm gonna go for the 40178, 15 gallons pr hour, 3,5-2psi (40105 is 30 gallons and 4.5-3psi). It also has both shut off valve and check valve, whatever that is.

I'm worried that the 40171 is too small and may not have enough pressure. 40178 is right in the middle of the 2.

What are your thoughts on this?

PS. Does anyone know what the "Lift Minimum Dry" parameter is?

 

Buy a genuine Honda one then you will get the RIGHT / CORRECT spec one for the job and you won't be iffing and amming if you bought the correct spec one for the life of you owning the bike.

From reading this thread it appears FACET don't do one which is the correct spec for the bikes so why fit one which isn't the correct spec for the bike?? the mind boggles

 

I had a facet on the list of upgrades to do when I got the RD04. After talking to an engineer I was advised to get a set of new contacts for the original pump and carry them instead of changing something that currently works to something that may work. I had the pump apart last week to check the points and everything looks fine. Contacts are back in the toolbox.
By his reckoning the points fail, not the whole pump

I'll keep my fingers crossed

 

I just ordered the 40178 on aircraftspruce.com for 47usd. Will probably test it, and let you know if it's more suitable than the 40105, which at present, looks like overkill, AND has no shut off valve and check valve.

 

.

dear sir

597 pumps sold since 2008

595 happy customers this pump has been fitted to our own Africa twins since 2005 ......... CASE CLOSED !!!!!!!!

 

I've never had a pump fail in 11yrs....
Just change the points! And carry spare points if travelling..
Simples :lol:

 

Hi, sorry if I'm hijacking this Facet pump thread with a question that's not Facet pump related [edit: but related to noisy Facet pump copy]

Yesterday i took the original pump of to check the breaker points and they were both quite nagged and they were very angled ---/ /--- so i thought it was about to give up.

Therefore I bought a new pump today at Biltema in Sweden (budget auto spare parts) and I found a pump that looks exactly the same as the Facet pump, even same measures and specs. I installed it like this: http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/mechanical-advice/9462-facet-fuel-pump-installation-long.html

I then turned on the ignition, crossed my fingers and started the bike. It started mediately and the engine sounded like it got the fuel it needed. But when I killed it with the killed switch the engine died but the pump was "ticking" very loud and very much. When I turned of the ignition it stopped and when I turned the ignition on again it kept turned off. But I tried to restart it and the same thing happened: Ignition - Start - Pump ON - killed engine - pump still on - killed ignition - pump off - ignition on - pump still off.

So, my main question, is there any relay that gives power to the pump when the engine is on, and why is it still giving power to the pump even if the engine isn't on?
Anything I can do to make the pump work only when I have the engine on and when push the start button? As it is now It sounds like it pumping fuel to the carbs and I'm afraid it will be to much so it bleeds to the cylinders if the needle fails to work by some dirt or something?

Is the facet pump doing the same thing?

Thanks for any advice! //Phille

 

Hi, sorry if I'm hijacking this Facet pump thread with a question that's not Facet pump related.

No, not at all. What´s the point in killing a perfectly well working thread on a different topic? Is your "create a new thread" button broke or the search function out of order?

 

No sweat.

 

Hi Phille,
Your problem intrigued me, so I dug out my Haynes manual and looked at the wiring diagram and read the pump fault diagnosis text. There are two places I would check for voltage in
two modes:
1. With only the ignition switch on (and kill switch in the run position) there should not be a battery level voltage on the wire from the ICU to the relay - until you crank the engine.
2. If step 1 has a voltage level as soon as the ignition switch is turned on then there is something wrong with the operation of the ICU.
3. If step 1 works as described, then check the voltage on the relay to pump wire, it should behave in the same way.
4. If you are seeing a voltage only on the relay to pump wire (no engine cranking) then I would suspect the relay to be shorted - possibly the contacts welded closed if mechanical.
A disconnected continuity test would confirm this.
5. If you are seeing a voltage on both wires (again no engine cranking) try disconnecting only the wire from the ICU and seeing if the relay turns off i.e. no voltage relay to pump, to eliminate the embarrassment & frustration of a double fault!!

Hope this helps.

 

Lets face it Facet pumps have been around for years. Ive been using them in different forms RED TOP, GOLD TOP and I run a solid state one on my MK2 RS 2000 for 5 years using 48 DCOE,s with no problems at all.

The only time it was noisy is when it ran out of fuel and that's the same as my AT when I run out off fuel it starts ticking switch it over to reserve and its whisper quite again. :thumbup:

 

This weekend I fitted the 40178. It wasn't really a straight fit, as the rubber kinda slided back a bit, and couldn't grip the fangs fully. Had to secure it with a few strips.

I twisted the pump inside the rubber, so that it's mounted at an angle, flowing upwards, as Facet recommends. As far as I recall, they didn't have this recommendation when I got the 40105 from Rugged Roads 3-4 years ago.

I've only had a 20-25km drive to work this morning, and it actually ran super smooth. I have no idea if the new pump made a difference, because I had a full tank, so I will have to wait and see. At least there was no clattering, which was a great feeling :thumbleft:

The pump did seem very hot when I arrived at work, but it's near 30 degrees here already, so maybe that's to be expected. I can't really remember if the old pump felt that hot to the touch ... I have a feeling that the rubber will be quite counterproductive when it comes to heat dissipation. We'll see how it fares in 40 degrees in a few months.

I will report back after some more testing, but so far so good!

As you can see, I made the classic mistake of forgetting to remove the fuel tap before yanking the tank off. It broke off, of course! Grrrrrrrr!

 

T

I twisted the pump inside the rubber, so that it's mounted at an angle, flowing upwards, as Facet recommends. As far as I recall, they didn't have this recommendation when I got the 40105 from Rugged Roads 3-4 years ago.
!

Following is cut n' pasted from Facet. Providing it's not mounted in a nose down position (possible vapour lock) the horizontal position should not be detrimental to
the operation. Mine has been horizontal with a slight nose up for 9 years with no problems.

[h=2]How should the Facet universal pumps be mounted?[/h]The fuel pump should be mounted with the outlet above the inlet. This will help with eliminate vapor lock issues. Never located the pump so the outlet is below the inlet. Horizontal mounting will not effect fuel delivery performance.

 

Mine's been fine since 2007 and about 40,000 miles but I would never say that means no-one will ever have any problems with theirs, either failure or not performing as it should...

 

The 40105 is rated for 30gph and you only need about 3gph...
Paul Puleo
National Sales Manager
Motor Components, LLC

Hmmm. Assuming he was talking about US gallons (I'm talking Imperial gallons) he's suggesting you should use a pump that provides about 2.4gph. On the motorway you could easily be approaching 2gph.

That seems way too close to the mark to me.

Also, though you may typically get 45-50mpg, you could use at least twice that much fuel at times. You wouldn't want to be going up a hill, two up, into a headwind using (guesses...) 5gph and have a pump rated at half that.

Put it another way, if you had a full tank (~5 gallons) and disconnected the fuel hose, how long would the it take for the fuel to drain out? If it drained in under 2 hours, then a gravity feed alone moves fuel faster than that pump

Another data point, a seller on ebay claims that the Felco pump they sell, rated at 50-55l per hour (or 11-12gph) is the same as the OE pump. I don't know if that's true, but it seems more credible than the claim that 2.4gph is the right fitment.

So it seems like the 40105 is higher pressure than you need, but probably something like 3 times too high rather than 10 times?

 

seems like the 40105 [at 30 gph] is ... something like 3 times [greater flow than OE pump]

According to Haynes, the oe pump should flow a minimum of 700cc/min

700 cubic centimeters per minute [is] 9.23870461 Imperial gallons per hour

damn I feel smug now :thumbright:

and it only took 10 years of speculative back-of-a-***-packet estimates to get one bang on :lol:

 

According to Haynes, the oe pump should flow a minimum of 700cc/min. Not sure how this would compare to the oe AT pump.
I would have thought running pressure would be more important than output, lets face it, a pumps output should ALWAYS be higher than maximum requirement.

Phil

sent from my 'phone

 

You can easily use google to convert flow rates. Try googling: 700 cubic centimeters per minute in imperial gallons per hour

Answer: 9.23870461 Imperial gallons per hour

Edit: You can use google to convert all kinds of crazy stuff. The general syntax is: [amount] [unit1] per [unit2] in [unit3] per [unit4]
You can also modify this by prefixing one of the units with a constant. For example, ever wonder how many lightyears you will travel if you drive constantly at 80 kilometers per hour for 10000 years? No problem, just google: 80 kilometers per hour in lightyears per 10000 year

(the answer is 0.000741253545 light years per (10 000 year))

 

For example, ever wonder how many lightyears you will travel if you drive constantly at 80 kilometers per hour for 10000 years?

All the time. How did you guess?

 

I thought I'd make a quick update after riding about 4,000km on the new Facet 40178 pump. The bike has now recovered from the host of issues I was experiencing with the other pump, like vibration, running hot, loss of power, and generally just feeling totally unreliable. Of course, I no longer have the incredible annoying clatter either, that the old Facet pump had. The only thing I've really done to the bike, is change the pump from the40105 to the 40178, so I must assume something was wrong with the fuel delivery before. I had completely forgotten how the bike was supposed to run. Love it!! :thumbup:

 

Interesting ... I wonder will this pump effect fuel consumption?

 

I'm going to revive this thread for a minute...

The 40105 (3 - 4.5 PSI, 30 GPH) is way too much pressure for these bikes. The 40177 (1 - 2 PSI, 7 GPH) will work fine. Remember: you only need enough pressure to overcome gravity, which at less than two feet of vertical distance, requires less than 1 PSI (plus a bit depending on fuel hose length).

I installed a 40105 at first. My idle was noticeably rougher and my mileage was much worse than normal. I never had noticeable fuel leakage, but it was clearly running too rich. I replaced it with a 40177 and never looked back. You can mess around with a fuel pressure regulator, as some others have, or just get the 40177.

Someone mentioned a KTM fuel pump. My notes say that the KTM 950 puts out 2.2 PSI and pumps 6.2 GPH. (Source: http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/another-dead-fuel-pump.234786/page-15#post-5340866).

 

Interesting topic and thanx for all the information. After last year's breakdown of my AT in Morocco due to failed Reg/Rec i also had to change the OEM fuel Pump which had it contacts almost completely melt (probably due to too high voltage running through - i dont know if voltage is the correct word here, however the contacts of the pump have been changed one month prior to that) i also changed the fuel pump to FACET from Rugged Roads.
Since the i was pretty happy with it, no problems, no significant noise (at least none to worry me).
But there were two things i noticed after this change:
- worse mileage
- significantly more heat coming from the engine

I don't know to what these simptoms could be attributable. With a mechanic we checked the carbs, valve clearances, ignition timing and cooling system and it all seemed to be fine. I'm not saying it is down to FACET fuel pump (i dont think the new MOSFET Reg/Rec has much to do with this) but after reading all these threads it's starting to boggle my mind a little.

Of course my knowledge about mechanics is quite limited, but i'll be following this post with interest

 

The fuel consumption on mine improved after fitting the Facet pump. I wasn't sure what was going on so never posted about it.

That's the trouble with forums, you're far more likely to read about problems than about the 99% of people who never had any hassle