The Rubberchicken has gone and done it !

[Confucious]

I assumed that cam and gear fuffing around was an expensive way to reduce a 44HP bike down to 27HP for a German NooB so, like Rubberchicken suggested, I went for the "Insulator" (the rubber bit between carb and cyl.), and whadaya know...it's split underneath - just like he said ! Either he's very smart or he's been in my garage ! So, it's gotta come off anyway now - in fact there's one bitch of a screw (by the petcock) and the band to go ! Why use socket head screws in there ? :scratch:

[Scott]

I think manufacturer's use awkward screws in awkward places on purpose as part of the design...it's all a test or a cunning ploy to get you to go to the dealer :?

Well done on finding the problem(s) too

[Rubberchicken]

I assumed that cam and gear fuffing around was an expensive way to reduce a 44HP bike down to 27HP for a German NooB so, like Rubberchicken suggested, I went for the "Insulator" (the rubber bit between carb and cyl.), and whadaya know...it's split underneath - just like he said ! Either he's very smart or he's been in my garage ! So, it's gotta come off anyway now - in fact there's one bitch of a screw (by the petcock) and the band to go ! Why use socket head screws in there ? :scratch:

Split as in there's a hole in it from the outside? And the bike hasn't seized yet? Lucky you. :-)

Getting that thing out is a bit of a nasty job indeed... if I can find some spare time later today I'll write up a topic about getting the carb out. It needs to come out every time you change the jetting, and by now I've got the total time down to about an hour and a half, start to finish.

[Rubberchicken]

I think manufacturer's use awkward screws in awkward places on purpose as part of the design...it's all a test or a cunning ploy to get you to go to the dealer :?

They think up stuff like that on friday nights after a little too much sake. ;-)

The bottom bolt on the manifold (insulator?) is just bad design, it's impossible to get at with anything other than a small angular inbus key, and even then it's still a fight. And worse, the rubber is weakened because of the position of that bolt which can lead to a nasty failure.

Here's a shot of the underside, the new one next to the old one, as you can see it's cracked but not yet leaking, so I caught it in time:
http://rubberchicken.nl/spruitjes.jpg

[Confucious]

Rubberchicken........

Mine looks exactly like yours...more rotten and on it's way out than "split". (As the actress said to the actress) I have to come clean here...I ran your theory through a german Honda workshop, and asked exactly the same question. He didn't mention anything about jetting though. Why are hairs on my neck standing on end ?

Did you take your tank off to do all this ? Do'es this mean I'm going to have to buy jets ?....I'm not Richard Branson y'know :wink: I've got the pdf set of NX maintenance chapters on file...looks like I'm going to need this :cry: .......I feel a six-pack coming on !

Thanks again (no sign of bird flu i hope...)

[Rubberchicken]

Rubberchicken........

Mine looks exactly like yours...more rotten and on it's way out than "split". (As the actress said to the actress) I have to come clean here...I ran your theory through a german Honda workshop, and asked exactly the same question. He didn't mention anything about jetting though. Why are hairs on my neck standing on end ?

Did you take your tank off to do all this ? Do'es this mean I'm going to have to buy jets ?....I'm not Richard Branson y'know :wink: I've got the pdf set of NX maintenance chapters on file...looks like I'm going to need this :cry: .......I feel a six-pack coming on !

Thanks again (no sign of bird flu i hope...)

Jets are pretty cheap... If you can afford a tank of gas you can afford a couple of jets, basically.

I'm not entirely sure on the jets, I've never dealt with restricted engines before, it could ofcourse be that it is just the right mixture except less of it... ;-)

But while you're taking the manifold out you might as well pull the carb out and clean it, and when you're at it have a look at what jets are inside...

Standard main jet size for the NX is #155, or in some models #162 for some reason. If you find either one of those, you'll be allright I guess. :-)

And you'll definitely make your life easier if you get the tank off :!:
It's a bit more work, but with the tank on you're really going to need little girls fingers to get anything at all done in there. ;-)

[Confucious]

Quote[I'm not entirely sure on the jets, I've never dealt with restricted engines before, it could ofcourse be that it is just the right mixture except less of it... ] I like the sound of this :D

Quote[But while you're taking the manifold out you might as well pull the carb out and clean it, and when you're at it have a look at what jets are inside... ]......but not this ! I much prefer the "essex girl" alternative in the jokes section..........Crap in the carb.....how often do I have to do that ? :lol:

Update soon.......

[Confucious]

That's the last screw out and the band off.....I'm going in :lol:

I think I'll whip the tank off first though :?

[Rubberchicken]

That's the last screw out and the band off.....I'm going in :lol:

I think I'll whip the tank off first though :?

Frankly I'm amazed you're even able to get those bolts out without taking the tank off...

By the way, which year is your NX?

On the '89 model you can undo the screws that connect the underside of the fairing to the tank, and then you can bend out the fairing just a bit, unsnap the rubber grommety things, then the tank will slide right out backwards (ofcourse, after unbolting it there :P ), without having to take off the rest of the fairing.

That'll give you a lot more space to work with

[Confucious]

That'll give you a lot more space to work with[/quote]

Well, yes it did, but only after I'd taken the screws out :roll:

"Spanner" is a bit of a mystery. On the registration document she's an 89 model. Under the seat is a colour code label which states NX650J - which I thought was an 88. The Seperator hoses are an 89 configuration, and now you've almost confirmed the '89 model by way of the fairing screws and grommets.......yipeeee I got a new bike !

And now folks, here I am with a skeleton of a bike, and ain't got a clue what I'm going to do next :cry: .... now, where's that saki ?

The pictures in the maintenance manual are not very clear :?

[Rubberchicken]

"Spanner" is a bit of a mystery. On the registration document she's an 89 model. Under the seat is a colour code label which states NX650J - which I thought was an 88. The Seperator hoses are an 89 configuration, and now you've almost confirmed the '89 model by way of the fairing screws and grommets.......yipeeee I got a new bike !
Hate to disappoint you but fairings and such are identical between '88 and '89. ;-)

And now folks, here I am with a skeleton of a bike, and ain't got a clue what I'm going to do next :cry: .... now, where's that saki ?

The pictures in the maintenance manual are not very clear :?
Right. The trick to get the carb out (at least how I've done it) is that the carb + manifold come out as one piece. So undo the throttle cables and choke cable, the metal band between the carb and the airbox, and the 3 bolts holding the manifold to the engine.

Now you've got a carb that you can't get out of the frame. ;-)

The trick is to loosen the airbox. Take off the side cover and undo the 3 bolts that connect it to the frame (one on the lefthand side next to the cover, 2 on top on the righthand side) and slide the airbox back. It only goes about 1 cm before hitting the rear fender, but that's enough clearance so that you can get the carb out.

The carb then comes out on the left side, between the frame and the engine, with the manifold first. Getting that big carb out is a bit of a puzzle, but believe me there is a way that it'll fit. ;-)

I'll see if I can dig up some pictures I made while doing this...

[Rubberchicken]

Pictures!

So you're staring at this, and thinking "what on earth did I get myself into..." ;-)
http://rubberchicken.nl/foto/carbstuff/05.jpghttp://rubberchicken.nl/foto/carbstuff/06.jpghttp://rubberchicken.nl/foto/carbstuff/07.jpg

Clear off as much of the rubber hoses and stuff:
http://rubberchicken.nl/foto/carbstuff/10.jpg

Friday Night Boozer Special in Japan:
http://rubberchicken.nl/foto/carbstuff/12.jpg

Getting the carb out:
http://onderhoud.luiemotorfiets.net/NL/fotoboekgifs/11027_4411_1070979874.jpg

The half-way point:
http://onderhoud.luiemotorfiets.net/NL/fotoboekgifs/11015_1092_1070755562.jpg

Might be useful: :-)
http://onderhoud.luiemotorfiets.net/NL/fotoboekgifs/11023_5255_1070756007.jpg

[Confucious]

This is Mrs confucious.......

Confucious can't come to the PC right now cos he's hanging from a throttle cable in the garage :cry:

[anton88]

Chill dude. Ive taken the carb out a couple of times. It is a bugger of a job - just take your time - dont rush it and end up breaking anything, especially if your going to take the carb apart - make sure youve got somewhere spotless clean to do it. And be carefull if replacing jets - dont overtighten them as theyre brass and can be easily damaged.

Keep the questions coming if you need help as theres lots of good free advice here.

Ant :lol:

[Rubberchicken]

Chill dude. Ive taken the carb out a couple of times. It is a bugger of a job - just take your time
It looks a lot worse than it actually is, it's just more work than I care for. I've done this a few times now, and the first time was pretty intimidating...

Managed to snap off one of the bolts of the manifold as well on the first try, imagine how that felt. Scheisse indeed. ;-)

So indeed, take it easy and there's no such thing as a stupid question, so feel free to ask!

dont rush it and end up breaking anything, especially if your going to take the carb apart - make sure youve got somewhere spotless clean to do it. And be carefull if replacing jets - dont overtighten them as theyre brass and can be easily damaged.

I put 'em in by hand, they don't have to be much tighter than that really...

[Confucious]

Thanks for those comforting words guys.........

I've just hung a left into Elm street. Have a look here http://home.online.no/~kays/gallery.cfm

Yes, it was split (from ear to ear) :shock: I managed to get the insulator out without too much force, once the carb was released from the other rubber connection at the air box.

The insulator may be kaput, but is not the restricted type. Is there any point in opening the carb now ? or do I live with what I've got ?

Is it possible that the dealer in Germany just used smaller jets ? I'm never going to get peace of mind unless i crack it open am I ?

Rubberchicken - assuming I'm the luckiest punk on this rock with a geuine bullet proof engine :) , what effect would that split have had on power ?

No more practical today - just theory..........yawn !

[squirrelciv]

This is a puzzler :? With a split like that I would of assumed a weak mixture leading to hot running. If the bike didn't run hot (with that split) I would then assume oversize jets to compensate for weak mixture.
Did you have poor fuel consumption as well as lack of power? Possibly down in the30-40MPG range? Did she used to stall a lot?
Big problem with poor mixture and hot running is you may have burnt your valves out which would loose you a lot of compression and power. Might be worth doing a compression test just to see.

Sorry to seem all doom and gloom, but if your in there prodding about might as well sort it out good and proper.

I don't know the bikes history, and if you've had her years and things have only just started to go pear shaped, I doubt you've done any long term harm.

Best of luck with her either way :D and fingers crossed hey.

PS There is a very good chance I'm talking out my arse as well. Not known as the greatest mechanic ever, but hey I try :D

[Confucious]

squirrel - Coming up to a year now, and only stalls where most other dommies stall - at traffic lights when they turn green :lol:

I'm sure I saw a link to a US online (Honda) parts company - does anyone remember where it or who they are ? I'd be really grateful !

Goodnight all & thanks again - I'll check in again tomorrow !

[samwise]

Bike Bandit (http://www.bikebandit.com) or PartsFish at PowerSportsPro (http://www.powersportspro.com/partsfish/login.asp).

Once you've got the part number, check the price with David Silver Spares (http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk) in the UK, as their prices for genuine stuff are pretty good, and they're quick responders too :thumbup:

[Rubberchicken]

The pics are a little small, but that looks like a crack allright...

The effects of a hole like that, well let's just say that a friend with an XT600 had a seized engine because of a loose manifold, and leave it at that... :?

Now that you've got it open this far it would be a waste to not have a look at what's in the carb, it's a peanuts job as far as the main jet goes.

http://onderhoud.luiemotorfiets.net/NL/fotoboekgifs/11018_8792_1070755758.jpg
If you put it upside down like this it sits stable, and you can unscrew the float bowl without fear of anything falling out. The brass bit at the top of the picture is the main jet, it should have the size on its side so you don't even have to take it out. If it's stock, it'll be either #155 or #162. If it's something else, then it's not stock. :-)

[Rubberchicken]

Part numbers:

The standard non-restricted manifold is: 16211-MN9-000
Should be around 50-60 euro.

Other interesting parts:

Main jets:
#150: 99101-393-1500
#152: 99101-393-1520
#155: 99101-393-1550 (standard on most bikes)
#160: 99101-393-1600
#162: 99101-393-1620 (standard on some bikes)
#165: 99101-393-1650
#168: 99101-393-1680
(These should be around 10 euro each)

Needle jet holder: 16165-MK4-602
This is the bit that the main jet screws into, and it tends to turn oval because of the needle being dragged through it all the time, which makes the bike run more rich in the midrange. Should be about 20-25 euro.

[Rubberchicken]

A bit more about that needle jet holder:

http://onderhoud.luiemotorfiets.net/NL/fotoboekgifs/16383_8269_1113144756.jpg

One of those is brand new.
One of those is 35000 miles old, and decidedly oval.

Like I said, this affects midrange mixture.
And if you're anything like me at all, that's where you spend 90% of your riding time. ;-)

This caused my bike to react a bit sharper to those 4000 rpm to full-open throttle snaps, and it improved fuel efficiency a bit as well.


I got the hint from a friend of mine with a yammie XTZ 750, that bike has vertical carbs so the effect of the needle rubbing against the brass is stronger there, but even though the dommie's carb is horizontal it's still a pretty stiff breeze in there so it does wear, as you can see in the picture... ;-)

[Confucious]

Insulator (manifold), #155 jet and holder = £52 incl. postage. Not bad going by today's prices. that's 10.7 beers in the local pub.

Those David Silver guys are really nice - did you know they process around 300 e-mails every business day ?

:!: No point f*rting about...the carb comes out tonight ("fart" means "speed" in norwegian, and in most cities you will find fart dampers.....and fart camera's on the highways....wonder what it looks like on film ?)

Well, I have to speed me on my way......thanks once again !

Talk later !

[Confucious]

:) Thanks to everyone who offered support and advice.

:!: The jet was indeed a #155, so that was that theory......

We have, at least, established that the insulator (manifold) was kaput and could have lead to catastrophic consequences...well done that Rubberchicken.....cock-a-doodle doo !

I think I'm going to install the new bits when they arrive, and put the bike in for honda control before the start of the 'season'. BTW, my carb came out the left side between the cyl and frame without much bother :)

I'll probably be on again later with a new topic, cos I've got something on the front left fairing that looks like a cigarette lighter socket....I'll be back ! 8)