Starting Problem 95 Dommie

[Old Man on a Bike]

Over the past few months I have noticed an increasing problem. Sometimes the bike starts fine. Sometimes just a click. When there is just a click, I put it in gear, pull in the clutch, push the bike, let out the clutch while it is moving. This seems to loosen something as when I press the butten the starter tuns fine and the engine starts.

As I say I have had to do this with increasing frequency of late. Very embarasing when you stall at lights.

I had presumed a tired battery.

Couldn't get started at all today - it has been quite cold right enough. Trip to halfords, new battery. Still can't get started - just clicks away.

My plan was to check all the electrical connections between battery and starter.

Just wondering if there is anything else I should be thinking about.

Is it significant that giving the starter a wee bump, by pushing then releasing the clutch ususally sorts it so it then starts on the button? I seem to have vague memories of a starter jamming, can't remember if it was a car or a bike but the recognised solution was a gentle tap with a hammer on a precise spot which loosened whatever it was that was stuck.

[catteeclan]

If you're sure the battery is good and charged, as you said check all connections. Still no joy then it's prob a starter problem. Sould be worth checking the bushes, they are available.

[sbikerbud]

I might be wrong but i thought the starter clutch would only engage when the starter motor was spinning, so nudging the bike forward with it in gear won't do anything directly to the starter motor

What it may be doing is nudging the engine past TDC giving a tired starter motor (or battery) a chance to gather a bit of speed before hitting compression.

As stated above it could be worn bushes. The increased gap in a worn bush may be overloading the starter solenoid circuit/battery causing the click.

Could be a loose connection too
electrics, i hate em

[SquarePants]

Sounds like the same problem I had on my 97 Dommie which turned out to be the brushes in the starter motor. Just to rule out any connection problems use a voltmeter to check that the starter is actually getting some juice when you press the button and you've not got a lose earth somewhere.

Assuming that's OK try giving the starter motor a sharp tap with the end of a tommy bar or similar. You can get to it best from the RHS (as you sit on the bike) and it's best to tap it with the starter button pressed. This has the effect of jolting the brushes against the commutator on the end of the motor and if you're lucky they'll make a good connection and get it spinning. There is a stainless steel oil feed pipe that travels upto the top of the engine that passes near the starter so be very careful not to damage this as you tap it.

If this works then the permanent fix is to renew the brushes (about £25 for a set) but it means taking the exhaust header pipes off in order to get the starter motor out. If you can the the pipes off then you're home and dry as that will most likely be the trickiest part depending what condition the bolts are in.

If you do need to renew the brushes, once the starter is out just remove the back end of it (no need to disturb the spindle end) as they sit in there. When you put it all back together make sure the seal around the positive terminal poking through the starter is really good (but don't overtighten it) so as to stop any water getting into the starter otherwise you'll be doing it all again in a few months when the new brush holders start to corrode and.... your starter doesn't work again. Yes I made that mistake .

It might sound a bit fiddly but it's not really - I reckon it's no more than a 3 spanners out of 5 in the Haynes kind of scoring way.

[Old Man on a Bike]

Thanks for the advice so far.

Part of my problem is that I work away from home during the week and don't have a garage so have to work on the bike before or after work in the dark on the street.

Anyway, bought a new charger and will start by testing the new battery. Start with the basics.

This was the first battery I have bought for a bike. I presumed it would just be a smaller version of a car battery. Got a bit of a surprise when I opened the box to find the battery and a seperate container with the battery acid in it. Is this normal for bike batteries? Any way followed the instructions carefully and fitted it. Think it said (can't be bothered to find the instructions just now) that if the battery tested at less than 14v it needs charged. Think it was only 12 point something. So hopefully a proper charge will get things going.

Must try to get up early and get the battery on the charger before going to work in the morning.

If that doesn't work then I'll move onto the other suggestions that have been made.

Will let you know how it works out.

Thanks

[pjm]

i have a '93 dom with a similar problem. mine doesnt click tho, the starter just keeps turning with out the engine firing. pushing the bike then letting the clutch out usually sorts it out. have never got to the bottom of it. my battery is just a couple of months old. i've started using a petrol station on a hill as sometimes the pushing-letting the clutch out trick doesnt work so i roll it down the hill!

[Old Man on a Bike]

i have a '93 dom with a similar problem. mine doesnt click tho, the starter just keeps turning with out the engine firing. pushing the bike then letting the clutch out usually sorts it out. have never got to the bottom of it. my battery is just a couple of months old. i've started using a petrol station on a hill as sometimes the pushing-letting the clutch out trick doesnt work so i roll it down the hill!

Frustrating isn't it.

I checked that the battery was in good condition. Got a new one, made sure it was fully charged.

I then tested the voltage at the starter when the button was pressed. Seemed to be ok, so reckoned the problem was with the starter. Brushes seems to be a common problem, and easily rectified.

So, I wrestled the exhaust off - well some of it. It is a Laser ProDuro thing. Managed to get the end can off. Got the two header pipes away from the engine but could only get one of the header pipes away from the middle section (whatever it is called). Anyway that gave me enough room - just about - to remove the starter.

Before I got the starter out I tried to loosen the cable terminal. Things were pretty rusted there - thought that might be part of the problem. I managed, by clever manipulation to break the connector at the end of the cable so that the crimpy bit was still attached to the cable but the flat bit with the hole in it that goes over the terminal bolt was still attached to that rusty mass.

I have a small crimp set I bought when I was messing about with the cables coming from the clutch switch on the handlebars, but the cable going to the starter is of a different order of magnitude and I thought I would have to buy some industrial sized equipment to replace the broken part.

Anyway it would now be easy to take the starter off the bike and work on loosening the rusty nuts on the terminal indoors so of course I tried to loosen them with the starter in situ.

When I tried to turn the top rusty nut he whole terminal turned.

Not, at this point, being clear on how the terminal was connected inside I merrily rotated the terminal through 360 degrees a few times in trying to get the first nut off. Attempts to stop the whole terminal rotating by clamping the lower parts with ill fitting mole grips failed so I gave up and continued removing the starter.

Finally got the starter off and took it indoors to see how these things work.

On taking the back end of the starter off I found that one of the the brushes should have been connected to the terminal, but was of course completely severed and the casing filled with bits of broken plastic which I took to be insulation / the thing that should have stopped the terminal spinning (if I hadn't been such a brute).

The starter had "MITSUBA SM-13" on it.

Had a quick look on the iterweb thing and saw a few pictures of replacement brushes and the plate thing that holds them but what I needed (apart from new brushes if that was the original problem) was a new, non rusted terminal and the insulation / mounting that holds it.

Why not just buy another starter? I thought.

Quick look on ebay found a number of sm-13s. None from a dominator though.

There was one from a Honda CBR 400 (Honda CBR 400 NC29 (94) Starter Motor - MITSUBA SM-13 on eBay (end time 10-Dec-09 22:07:05 GMT)) which looked exactly the same. It had the same model number Mitsuba SM-13 so it had to be the same. It also the had the cable attached, so I wouldn't have to repair / replace the cable I broke.

A quick 20 notes plus £5 postage had the thing delivered in a couple of days.

While waiting for the new starter I experimented with the old one and the old battery. A couple of judiciously placed crocodile cliped wires gave a wonderful display of sparks and the partially disassembled starter spun with such surprising ferocity that it nearly wrenched the arm off the fool who was holding it - I was directing matters from a safe distance.

Given this display I concluded that there was not much wrong with those brushes.

When the new starter arrived I took the back end from it, including the plate thing with the brushes, one attached to the shiny terminal connected to the thick cable, and joined that on to the body of my old starter. Everything fitted together wonderfully.

I went out to the bike and spent some considerable time trying to get it to fit back on. It took me a mere half hour to realise that something was wrong. I took it back inside (which involves a ride to the 15th floor. Wish I could get the bike in the lift).

A close examination of the two starters revealed to me that they had different spindles. So, I swapped the commutators (if that's what they are called - the big bit in the middle that spins round), stuck things back together - though by this time I was getting a bit confused about which bits were from which starter, and went back down to the bike.

This time I managed to get the starter on relatively easily and was feeling pretty pleased with myself. Connected it up to the battery. Pressed the starter - and it turned. Was chuffed to bits.

I started to put the exhaust back together and all the other bits. I realised that the clutch was totally loose then remembered that I had disconnected something that held the clutch cable. I quickly located the bit I needed to secure and the screw that secured it, but could I find where it was to be secured to.

I reasoned that since I had taken it off to get the starter out it must have been blocking its removal in some way. I just couldn't see what I could screw the cable to to block the the starter. Finding nothing else I guessed it must have been the starter its self but I could see nothing on the starter to screw it to.

I took the starter off again and went back up to the flat and compared the starters, now not having a clue what bits came from where.

I realised that I had the spindle end end casing from the CBR on the starter and that the end casing from my own bike's starter had the hole to screw the clutch cable thing into. So dismantled the starter again and swapped the end casing over.

Back down to the bike. Starter back on. Connected to the battery. Press button - it starts. Connect clutch cable. OK. Exhaust back togther - OK. Bike starts first time and I ride around the car park.

Only problem is that exhaust fumes are billowing out of the cylinder block. Tighten up the bolts - no difference.

Return to flat to look up exhaust problem to see that there are two gaskets that need to be replaced when you take the header pipes. So I rush off to the Honda dealer who has them in stock. I also purchase some grease as I was advised that the starter may sieze if I didn't grease the bearings, or whatever they are.

Back to bike, take the exhaust off again. Remove the starter, open it up, grease the bits, put the starter back on (by now I could remove it, strip it down and replace it blindfold, with one arm tied behind my back and under heavy enemy fire I have done it that often) refit exhaust with new gaskets. Put everything back together and hey presto everything works.

Bike starts no problem.

Home mechanics is so simple and yet so satisfying

Only thing is I'm still not sure what the original problem was.