Regulator cooling

[Jim Davis]

Why compare voltage?? The cap will be roughly 14.4v if it's higher than that it's not more efficient it's broken

Not really comparing Voltage at higher revs with no load. What I'll do is run it at idle with headlights on HI. For sure this is going to put the battery into 'draino' mode. Therefore Voltage will drop well below top charging V. If the new model outputs more it will hopefully outut more at idle or at least the Voltage should show a bit higher. I'll check V with no lights and at higher revs too for a complete comparo.

How about I measure V at idle and slowly run the revs up noting V at various revs and compare? All other things being equal, battery fully charged, engine warm, etc higher output should equal higher V through out the range.

As for the VMax, I think but not sure, the newer units run at a higher Voltage anyway.

Can I suggest you map input AC current to output DC current instead

The test setup for that I'd have to borrow from NASA...

As for SCR being less efficient YES and NO, SCR's on low DC voltage can be hard to turn off so they tend to use a MOSFET in conjunction with an SCR to turn the thing off, MOSFET's on thier own are way too susceptable to EMI and all spark based engines have a beautiful EMI generator in the form of the ignition... MOSFETS still turn the voltage on/off but they don't sink the current through a resistor like SCR's do.. So all in all they're not really more efficient but instead just run cooler at lower output

Ha, you can't fool me. MOSFETS are more efficient, that's why the new bikes all have them.

It'll be interesting to see your results..and whether they have cured the EMI problems that dogged the earier units.

PS..don't forget to measure the DC current you'll need probably at least a 20amp meter

Well with both headlights on HI likely a 5A meter would do it even at higher revs.

[edit]

Just out of interest did anyone know that a rectifier actually runs cooler the more drain you put on the electrical system...

Yes, and alternators burn out quicker.

The big problem as I see it is poor electrical connections - old, corroded, dirty, oily, connections.

Ok, let me sum up these things - I'm hardly going to do any high tech measuring or experiements. I just want to see if the new style R/R will keep my battery charged while producing almost zero heat. If I can get a bit higher V at idle with both headlights on, that will be a bonus.

[Lumiya]

Ok, let me sum up these things - I'm hardly going to do any high tech measuring or experiements. I just want to see if the new style R/R will keep my battery charged while producing almost zero heat. If I can get a bit higher V at idle with both headlights on, that will be a bonus.

Zero heat??, even a mosfet RR is still gonna produce heat (otherwise it wouldn't be in the large finned thing called a heatsink

They're cool enough to place in non-vented locations but it'll still produce heat.. Unlike a shunted SCR though it'll get hotter the higher load is on it..

Remember you're not taking the AC 3 phase through a tranformer but actually converting to a single semi rectified phase and then chopping up the voltage the same way a switch mode power supply does. MOSFETS aren't that efficient hence they themselves give of heat but (the bit you seemed to get confused about when I last talked about efficiency) the circuit design is more efficient as you're not shunting the excess voltage through essentially a large ballast (which produces more heat) so in effect you've removed one of the heat sources but slightly increased the other one (the IC itself)

One of the really good things though about MOSFETs is thier ability to shutdown when a short occurs, so a knackered battery or shorted out AC winding shoudn't take out the REG/REC

[Jim Davis]

ALMOST zero heat I said, as in warm to the touch but never hot. You need reading glasses hon?

I'm not sure what you're debating against or debating just for the fun of it, but my point is these new types of R/Rs are the answer for the Africa Twin, NOT silly cooling fans or tubes.

I picked one up on EBay for less than $40 shipped. I'll keep you all posted how it works. I have some thermal indicator strips here that will tell me the maximum temp it sees.

And my hope is to get a bonus - more output. Even 5% more on my RD03 would be great!

[Lumiya]

Almost zero heat isn't what you're gonna get and never needed glasses in my life

I'm debating because you're portraying the mosfet versions as a miracle cure to all of the RR woes...

I'm really though still puzzled about this 5% more figure, for gawd sake the SCR RR's are not inefficient, and the heat is not caused by inefficiency.... The heat though is thier only drawback...

Anyway will leave you to it...thanks for the great laugh especially with Nasa owning all the AC & DC Amp meters

[goodwoodweirdo]

I’ve had the same heat worries, so I did the following...

Attached to a 3mm back plate then on the other side of the plate attach copper air cooling fins from a PC VGA / Graphics card, coat everything with cooling paste. Space 15mm from the chassis.. then I drilled several holes in the upper plastic body panel to allow any hot air out….

Rode to the dead sea without any problems … +44 degrees … it was extreme heat, my boots where filling with sweet ! first time I’ve ever had the fan going, stopped for an hour, started the bike and immediately the fan started … the engine couldn’t loose its heat.

I also fitted an aero charge indicator light (plenty info here) and this enabled me to monitor the charging status eg health of the regulator / rectifier …

I removed the white plastic thing, attached to the air box and secured a spare rectifier … (note RD04)



Good luck with your travels

Matt

[Jim Davis]

Almost zero heat isn't what you're gonna get and never needed glasses in my life

I'm debating because you're portraying the mosfet versions as a miracle cure to all of the RR woes...

I'm really though still puzzled about this 5% more figure, for gawd sake the SCR RR's are not inefficient, and the heat is not caused by inefficiency.... The heat though is thier only drawback...

Anyway will leave you to it...thanks for the great laugh especially with Nasa owning all the AC & DC Amp meters

You can post all the smilies you want, you're just another troll looking for ego stroking. How convenient for you to leave out the word 'almost'.

The new R/Rs ARE a miracle cure to bikes with R/R troubles. Tubes and fans are NOT.

Trust me the higher Voltage especially at idle has already been proven on other forums. It is this higher output at lower revs that I want. I want to wear heated gear when it's cold have both H4s blazing, and still keep my battery happy.

You obviously have not hooked up many Amp meters to motorbikes. You make it sound like a walk in the park. It is very time consuming and not necessary in this case. In a shop with the right battery shunt equipment it would be easy but I don't have that equipment nor in fact do I have an Amp meter that reads over 12A.

beam me up Scottie...

[Lumiya]

You obviously have not hooked up many Amp meters to motorbikes. You make it sound like a walk in the park. It is very time consuming and not necessary in this case. In a shop with the right battery shunt equipment it would be easy but I don't have that equipment nor in fact do I have an Amp meter that reads over 12A.

So pray tell what's so hard as to single out one of the three generator wires and insert an AC ampmeter on it? (for gawd sake it only maxes out at about 60vAC at about 4amp which most simple clamp meters will do) and then do the same with a 20Amp DC meter on the red wire running from the regulator to the battery (oh sorry I forgot NASA still has the patent on all DC 20amp meters so Maplins and the rest must be selling these simple multimeters illegally!!!)??? Done it lots of times before and once we get this 850 built will be doing it again with this HD generator that electrex have kindly thrown at us as they want an opinion on whether the 33% increased capacity is attainable and thier standard RR98 will cope with it OK in a real life world given the increased temp coefficient (really glad that sucker is in an oil bath...just hope the windings don't self destruct like the last one at 30 amps )

The laughable thing here though is that I'm not disagreeing with your low end battery output, but as voltage is ony one side of how well the unit is working I asked if you were going to map the currents as well as it's the current that just as relevant in the charge/powering of the equipement, which you seemed to not only take great offence at.. but seem to think that it's impossible and the equipement doesn't exist...

Ahhh I know what it is...it's a conspiracy...now where's my tin foil hat.....You sure your names not Muad'Dib???


PS.... as this isn't really about Africa Twins but about how to keep regulators cool and/or other forms of regulators I'll move the conversation to BIKE TECH

[Jim Davis]

Sorry I don't have any clamp meters and I doubt they'd be accurate enough in any case.

I still believe that at idle with a full load on the system, a higher Voltage should be a pretty good proof of any output improvement. I expect the battery to be discharging with the stock system at this time, so a slight improvement might even bump the battery from discharge to charging. (ya right but one can hope)

When you get that new high output alternator in please let us know the Voltage at idle with full load compared to stock. I mean do your clamp tests by all means but do the Voltage check too just to humour me.

As far as keeping the R/R cool, the newer style is definitely the way to go as they never get hot.

And one more time I'll remind everyone that the connections are of the utmost importance. They should be preferably new but at the very least clean and tight.

Plug a new R/R into a system using the old connector halves that have some corrosion on them is a good way to ensure your new R/R's life will be short and hot.

Here's what sometimes happens:

[Lumiya]

Sorry I don't have any clamp meters and I doubt they'd be accurate enough in any case.

My Fluke 360 should be accurate to within .1A at that range... The joys of being an ex-component level repair tech

I still believe that at idle with a full load on the system, a higher Voltage should be a pretty good proof of any output improvement. I expect the battery to be discharging with the stock system at this time, so a slight improvement might even bump the battery from discharge to charging. (ya right but one can hope)

As I said voltage from the unit is one thing, but enough current is another... In the end though it does depends on the wiring, ignition, relays...etc.. Even the interlock diode can leak a bit of current If though you get a positive result and are happy then you're happy..

When you get that new high output alternator in please let us know the Voltage at idle with full load compared to stock. I mean do your clamp tests by all means but do the Voltage check too just to humour me.

We already have it, just waiting for space in the workshop.. Currently it's taken up with Jen's Range Rover project (She's GRP'ing a whole new shell to go over the roll cage )

As far as keeping the R/R cool, the newer style is definitely the way to go as they never get hot.

Never say never... Perhaps it's best to say it should not exibit extreme temps in normal usage They have been known to self-destruct as with any electronic unit

And one more time I'll remind everyone that the connections are of the utmost importance. They should be preferably new but at the very least clean and tight.

Plug a new R/R into a system using the old connector halves that have some corrosion on them is a good way to ensure your new R/R's life will be short and hot.

Gotta agree with him here.. Best method is always chop to clean wire, solder and then heatshrink, but not practical unless you have soldering experience and also makes it a pain in the @r$e to replace... On all of our Raid build we replace the standard connectors with AMP's/sureseals or whatever your favourite sealed connector may be where-ever you are in the world and the spares odviously have the same plug installed..

If you are though using the original connectors best to wash them out with at least some electrical cleaning spray, make sure that the copper contacts are not corroded (if so clean or replace) and then re-assemble with a decent barrier grease..