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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys
I'm nearing the end of my 7 week trip through Central Asia, Altai-Russia and Mongolia.


I have a problem, I think, and would be really grateful for suggestions/ comments/ possible solutions. It is also urgent as I fly home to England next weekend (today Sat 25[SUP]th[/SUP] Aug, flight Sat 1[SUP]st[/SUP] September). I was hoping to leave the bike in Mongolia to continue my trip into eastern Siberia next summer, 2013 (preferred choice). If necessary, however, I can freight the bike back to the UK from Mongolia, but would need to set things in motion very quickly.


The bike: 1988 pd06 XL600v Honda Transalp, unknown mileage (I'm the 12[SUP]th[/SUP] owner!), but anywhere above 50/80 thousand miles/kms. On this trip the bike has done 8500km/5000miles, about 50/50 pavement/gravelMudSand. The front sprocket is OEM Honda 15 tooth, rear steel aftermarket and chain expensive DID 525 118 link vx. All 3 are still in good condition, I believe. Please see images below.


I reached my destination Ulaan Baatar, the capial of Mongolia a week ahead of schedule, so decided to take a ride south to visit the Gobi desert. Yesterday morning (8300km/5000miles into this trip), just before setting off I noticed the damage to the sprocket cover (see image: I removed the plastic centre circle, it was still 2/3 attached to the cover). This damage would have happened very recently as I definitely would have noticed a gradual issue.


Before leaving for the Gobi, I replaced the sprocket retainer (number 1) with a new spare (number 2). It last precisely 200km/120miles! See image.


I rode as carefully as I could back to Ulaan Baatar today. Before setting off I also loosened the chain a bit more too. Retainer number 3 is already half worn after this further 200km/120 miles!


The front sprocket does “wobble” a little on the shaft.


How/why did this happen? I believe the chain tension wasn't too tight. The output shaft is IMHO in good condition (much better than the one on my 1995 Africa Twin...).


What's the solution?


1. Weld the sprocket onto the shaft? (not a problem, the bike is cosmetically very nasty and only really worth gbp600/us$1000/euro700, if that). This can be done locally, if I can find a competent Mongolian welder who understands English or German.


2. Replace the output shaft? The would require a full engine rebuild, for which I don't have the expertise. Finding a competent English/German speaking mechanic in Mongolia will be a challenge! Also the parts would have to be sourced and imported. I can ship the bike back to England where I know a very reliable mechanic, but I can't justify the cost (it would be 1500euro shipping for a 700euro bike and that is before paying parts and labour.)


3. Just put on a new front sprocket? I don't have one with me, but could easily bring one with me when I would return to Mongolia in 2013 for my Siberia trip. I'd also bring a job lot of new retainers with me.


4. Or? Over to you!


FWIW, I am sending this email using the wifi at the Oasis Guesthouse. Rene and Sybille, the owners, are currently out of town, but back on Wednesday. I'm hoping to be pro-active from Monday (27[SUP]th[/SUP] August) morning onwards.


Several images are below that will hopefully help solve my problem.



Retainers from left to right
1 lasted 8000km
2 lasted 200km!!
3 is half worn after 200km!!
4 is new (for comparison)





Chain tension





Chain tension





Chain pulled off rear sprocket, still v good condition, IMHO





Retainer number 3 on sprocket, before setting off this morning.





Output shaft looks Ok to me, I've seen a lot worse on my Af Twin that has about 1/3 missing off each tooth





See above comment





When I pulled over for a pee, a quick glance revealed this shocking image (of the sprocket/retainer/shaft, not my manliness!)





See above comment





Sprocket looks fine, but does wobble a little on the shaft





See above comment





Sprocket cover after removing the worn central section


Any input is very gratefully received! Thanks in advance! If we meet, payment in beers. If not, good Karma all round!


Ride safely,


Chris
 

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So your bike is chewing the retainers.....

To me the shaft & sprocket look fine.

Looking at the wear to the sides of the teeth that the chain has made, I'd check chain/wheel alignment.
Is the front sprocket on the right way round - the part number/no of teeth stamped into the sprocket should be visible with the sprocket fitted.

A misaligned chain/wheel/speocket will chew the retainer.

Phil

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
 

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First thoughts are:

Sprocket and shaft look OK: a bit worn, but at that mileage, pretty good.
Chain looks a bit tight, but difficult to judge without a means of measuring the slack.
Concerned that the sprocket is the wrong way round, giving the wrong offset.

Something is clearly putting an axial force on the sprocket, causing it to move towards the end of the shaft. This is probably what is wearing the retainer and the cover so quickly. Initial thought are (and bear in mind I have an AT, not a TA, so may be talking b******s)

Sprocket on back to front
Rear sprocket offset to left (wheel spacer issue?)
Driveshaft offset problem (highly unlikely, but possible)
Swing arm damage (have you had a big off? It would have to have been pretty memorable!)
Output bearing knackered.

I suggest the first thing you do is check the alignment of front and rear sprockets. Its pretty quick and easy to do, and might show that the problem is easier to fix than a new shaft. Let's hope so:D. And check that the output bearing is OK while you are down there.
 

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Looks like the sprocket is on the wrong way around. The flush surface should be outwards. That would account for the sideways force that's wearing out the retainers. I could be talking rubbish...
 

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Having looked at Honda ones online, I think I was talking rubbish. Check the rear wheel alignment and also check the drive shaft for free play.
 

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Hi Chris, only scan read as need to pop out.. plastic circle has been worn by bolts while sprocket has started to move to the end of the counter shaft. This is your answer, a big washer..

p1010181md8.jpg

Sprocket splines and everything else is fine IMO.

See www.TransAlp.org • View topic - Worn gearbox output shaft
 

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Discussion Starter #7
So your bike is chewing the retainers.....

To me the shaft & sprocket look fine.

Looking at the wear to the sides of the teeth that the chain has made, I'd check chain/wheel alignment.
Is the front sprocket on the right way round - the part number/no of teeth stamped into the sprocket should be visible with the sprocket fitted.

A misaligned chain/wheel/speocket will chew the retainer.

Phil

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
First thoughts are:

Sprocket and shaft look OK: a bit worn, but at that mileage, pretty good.
Chain looks a bit tight, but difficult to judge without a means of measuring the slack.
Concerned that the sprocket is the wrong way round, giving the wrong offset.

Something is clearly putting an axial force on the sprocket, causing it to move towards the end of the shaft. This is probably what is wearing the retainer and the cover so quickly. Initial thought are (and bear in mind I have an AT, not a TA, so may be talking b******s)

Sprocket on back to front
Rear sprocket offset to left (wheel spacer issue?)
Driveshaft offset problem (highly unlikely, but possible)
Swing arm damage (have you had a big off? It would have to have been pretty memorable!)
Output bearing knackered.

I suggest the first thing you do is check the alignment of front and rear sprockets. Its pretty quick and easy to do, and might show that the problem is easier to fix than a new shaft. Let's hope so. And check that the output bearing is OK while you are down there.
Many thanks for your quick replies. I really appreciate it.

Possibly the chain was a little tight, but IMHO not excessively. When running retainer number 3, it definitely was loose.

I just rechecked my front sprocket an it's as it should be, as pictured in this thread: http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/transa...on-similar-question-but-different-others.html

As far as I can see, the rear wheel is on right (including spacers etc). In the 8500km I've only had to adjust the chain 3 times: I was running a Scottoiler until it ceased). The last time it was off was to change the rear tyre 2500km ago. 2500km on the same retainer. Just checked swingarm and rear wheel bearings and all seems ok with them too.

I did have a big off, but that was 7500km ago (drove off a cliff in Kyrgystan!l: Ride report to come...). More head first down a smooth slope, rather than getting wrapped round a tree. The same retainer lasted these 7500km.


You mention "driveshaft offset problem" (what's this?) and "output bearing knackered" (how do you check this?).

Like I said, the front sprocket wobbles on the shaft. Is this normal? I read somewhere that Honda OEM front sprockets are softer in the middle, so the hole wears, rather than the shaft. Might this be my problem? There's a bloke here with a BMW f650 Dakar and he has no play between his front sprocket and shaft.

I appreciate your help.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Looks like the sprocket is on the wrong way around. The flush surface should be outwards. That would account for the sideways force that's wearing out the retainers. I could be talking rubbish...
Having looked at Honda ones online, I think I was talking rubbish. Check the rear wheel alignment and also check the drive shaft for free play.
Hi Alan
I hope your first reply is the wrong one. At http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/transa...on-similar-question-but-different-others.html you said the way I've had it for 8500km was corrrect:cool:.
 

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I thought the front sprocket was on the wrong way round as well. Most sprockets have a boss the same shape as the retaining plate. The shaft looks relatively good, the sprocket looks pretty good. I would be interested to see the other side of the front sprocket. If it is the wrong way round it'll be pulled one way or the other by the misaligned chain.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Right, it's nearly 7pm here. Assuming my front sprocket is on right, as pictured in the linked thread above, tomorrow I'll swap over the spacers on my back wheel.

Possibly I put them on wrong during the tyre change. The reason why this might be, is that I also have unusal wear on my rear brake pads (the swingarm/wheel is off a 1998 bike). The rear right pad is nearly totally worn, while the left rear pad has lots of life. The front sprocket hole may now also have play, because it was getting pulled the wrong way for 2500km. This will also explain the 2 groves of wear on the engine casing in images 6 and 7.

Tomorrow, I'll then use my final retainer and go for a spin. If this works, it'll be the cheapest solution! It would make me quite blond too.:rolleyes: Wish me luck.
 

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Hi Chris, only scan read as need to pop out.. plastic circle has been worn by bolts while sprocket has started to move to the end of the counter shaft. This is your answer, a big washer..

View attachment 19990

Sprocket splines and everything else is fine IMO.

See www.TransAlp.org • View topic - Worn gearbox output shaft
I just re read this now I'm back from the train station and I'm absolutely certain that the washer as pictured above is what you need. Quite simply if you push the sprocket as far onto the shaft as you can the movement will be minimal. Then as soon as you fit the retainer and start to do the two bolts up you will notice the sprocket start to move towards you, doing up the retaining bolts actually starts to pull the sprocket off the shaft. Try it and you will notice the reason for this is that the standard retainer is too thin, it's a terrible design fault IMO, the other way to look at it is the groove for the retainer in the shaft is too wide. Either-way, you must eliminate this issue before what looks like a good shaft turns to red oxide by using a thicker retainer of some description, maybe you could fit two retainers but after spending some time on this myself I strongly believe that the washer pictured above is the way to go. Especially with the wear starting to focus on the outer end of the shaft, it will reach a point where it will just naturally want to run to the end of the shaft. This is the point you are at now it would seem to me. Good luck and please see the link above too and the posts by Ernie which gives much better info on the issue.

Nick
 

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How do you check your "drive shaft" has free play.
Grab the output shaft between thumb and fingers. Try and move it up and down and left and right. It should have no play in these directions. You will have back and forward movement if you push and pull the shaft, this is normal. When mine went I was alerted by the oil leaking past the seal as the shaft was distorting it when it moved. It only leaked when riding, not at a stand still. Your seal looks fine so I would be surprised if you have this problem.

I would still be interested to see the other side of your front sprocket.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Right, it's nearly 7pm here. Assuming my front sprocket is on right, as pictured in the linked thread above, tomorrow I'll swap over the spacers on my back wheel.

Possibly I put them on wrong during the tyre change. The reason why this might be, is that I also have unusal wear on my rear brake pads (the swingarm/wheel is off a 1998 bike). The rear right pad is nearly totally worn, while the left rear pad has lots of life. The front sprocket hole may now also have play, because it was getting pulled the wrong way for 2500km. This will also explain the 2 groves of wear on the engine casing in images 6 and 7.

Tomorrow, I'll then use my final retainer and go for a spin. If this works, it'll be the cheapest solution! It would make me quite blond too.:rolleyes: Wish me luck.
Sorry to not yet have responded to all the people who have replied: I need to go out for food. I will tomorrow.

However, can somebody with a rear disk model pd06 nip out to their bike and tell me which side which spacer is? On my bike it's currently the bigger one on the left (sprocket) side and the smaller one on the right (brake disk) side.

I will do all the checks suggested tomorrow in the daylight. There's a dutch Toyota Landcruiser man here too who has a full workshop with him. I'll be raiding his stuff :p

Many thanks!
 

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Chris, from memory, I'm sure the longer spacer with domed/flanged end fits the sprocket side, the shorter "parallel" tube/spacer fits the disc side.

Phil

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Hi chris..

if its a genuine honda front sprocket it should have the 15t stamped into one side this side should face out ...

also on my ta650 with rear disc brake I tried to put the rear wheel bakcon with spacers on thewrong side..the caliper bracket would not locate no matter how hard I treid..so dowt its the spacers as they are different sizes..

The sprocket clamp should slide over teeeth then turn to lock sprocket onto shaft ..the clamp is the right way as it can with force be mounted the wrong way pulling the sprocket forward wrecking the cover..yep i`ve done it..

I now use a dab of white paint on sprocket and clamp ...so face together ..
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you all. Been busy working on the bike and dodging sand storms. Now it's raining!



Hope you don't mind me admitting that I posted my original help request on 4 different forums. The level of help and really useful advice has been outstanding. It's great to know that so many people care about your wellbeing. Please take this reply as aiming at all of you. Sorry, with is super slow internet connection, I'm unable to reply to you individually.


The posts are at


http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/honda-tech/advice-needed-mongolia-transalp-output-65929#post390382

http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/transalp/82359-advice-needed-mongolia-transalp-output-shaft-sprocket-retainer-problem-urgent.html#post643588

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19441010#post19441010

http://www.transalp.de/forum/beitraege/technik/advice_needed_in_mongolia_transalp_output_shaft_sprocket_retainer_problem_urgent/#pid


So I did the following today.


Removed bashplate and checked chassis for damage: None found.


Checked engine mounts: All tight


Checked swingarm for damage: None found.


Rechecked swingarm bearings: Fine


Checked rear wheel bearings: Seemed fine.


Checked sprocket carrierbearing: Some play


Checked chain tension again: Still too tight, so loosened after doing all the work on the bike


Removed front sprocket and checked output shaft: no movement l/r, up/down, nor in/out.


The front sprocket is definitely on the correct way round. It may or may not be an OEM part, the discussion from May this year about it is at http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/transalp/80894-t-front-sprocket-question-similar-question-but-different-others.html There is no writing on it.


The sprockets inside and out are pictured below. There is clear wear on the outside front and inside rear. Hence chain out of alignment, as suggested by most people. So if the front sprocket is cool, the problem is with the rear?!...





Rear outside



Rear Inside



Front outside



Front inside






As was also suggested, I put the bike vertically on a stand with the back off the ground, removed retainer, put front sprocket in correct position, started motor and engaged 1[SUP]st[/SUP] gear: The front sprocket immediately skipped outwards to the end of the shaft, then continued to move left/right way beyond where it should sit.


So removed back wheel. The cushdrive rubbers looked a bit dubious (They will also be replaced next summer before setting off for Siberia)





Replaced carrier bearing and also the other 2 rear wheel bearings (I knew there was a good reason to carry all these heavy spares...). I say replaced, It was Roy the nice Dutch chap in the Landcruiser who did all the work. He's a heavy plant mechanic, so a fat Honda was quite familiar to him:





After cleaning everything, smoothing out the burrs in the central bearing spacer tube and greasing stuff we put everything back together. The 2 outer spacers were in the same position as previously. Longer one on the left/sprocket side, shorter one on the right/brake disk side. Everything seemed to fit much better.


Finally, ran the bike in 1[SUP]st[/SUP] again, with a looser chain too and the front sprocket stayed where it should! While I was twisting the throttle somebody else standing 3 meter back behind the bike thought the chain was running true too.


I put on my final new retainer (number 4) and will take the bike for a spin out the the giant Chinggis statue tomorrow. Wish me luck! I'm very hopeful things will go well.

If all does work out well then the problem was caused by a slightly loose carrier bearing, a tight chain and possbly sh!te cushdrive rubbers. On the last tyre change in the stoney/dusty/dirty carpark in front of the Russian tyre-wallah's shop I may have been less than subtle too. If not...?


Next summer I'll also bring a complete new C and S set, plus new spare retainers and also a couple of modified retainers as described by East Coast in post number 6 at http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/transalp/82359-advice-needed-mongolia-transalp-output-shaft-sprocket-retainer-problem-urgent.html#post643588 Conveniently I have a 1987 TA at home too, so have a demo model to test it on. Or EC will sell me one of his ;-)


I'll advise how I get on following the test ride.


Cheers!
 

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Good luck for tomorrow Chris, thanks for the update and look forward to hearing how it goes, fingers crossed all's well :thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter #19
The test is done and the evidence is below. Only 100km/60miles virtually all on pavement, but I did regularly try to simulate riding offroad/sand by riding like a tosser, er I mean, a Mongolia car-jockey/trucker.




thickness



Inside



Outside


There's v little wear on the retainer that started the morning as a new part. One of the 6 splines on the retainer is even spotless! I believe all Transalp retainers will inevitably have some surface damage just because of the (stupid?) design of the shaft. As my current front sprocket wobbles (do they all do this from new? As mentioned in a previous mail the ones on a BMWf650 don't/shouldn't), probably because of the tight chain/shagged carrierbearing/cushdrive pulling it the wrong way.


I'm going to do the trip to Siberia as planned next summer and take the parts with me as mentioned.


So, 2 things I've learnt when riding Honda v-twin dualsport bikes when doing a lot of offroad/sand/mud: Run your chain real loose. Also (all the time) when checking rear wheel bearings, don't just wiggle the back wheel in the swing arm, but also wiggle the sprocket carrier separately too.


All the best to all and hope to see you near a bar somewhere :)


C
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Sorry to sound like an anorak, but should you be interested in creating a modified front sprocket retainer (as mentioned previously), the grove it sits in is 3.15mm wide (the oem retainer is 2.3mm thick).

Managed to get special dispensation from Mongolia Customs today to leave my bike here for a year. They believed my bike is genuinely only worth 600 bucks... Hence v low deposit needed.

Siberia 2013 is on!


cheers guys

PS; This video might explain the low bike value. Turn up the volume. Sorry, the fall off isn't very spectacular. Must try harder.:(

 
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