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Boris's Moral Dilemma thread, and also that by Africajim regarding warranty work, have got me thinking about the cost of owning a new-ish bike.

Notwithstanding the fact that most, if not all, modern vehicles have way more electronics than the Saturn V moon rockets and therefore need Deep Blue plugging in to diagnose any faults or even mark a service as having been carried out, manufacturers appear to be getting ever more strict on where and how you can get the vehicle serviced and / or warranty work done. And the two posts referred to above show that this is getting very expensive for the average punter.

Now then, economics*. Yes, modern vehicles are, in the main, more fuel efficient than previous models but does the cost of purchasing and servicing a modern bike make economic sense? You can get a damned good second bike for £2000, maybe not a pristine AT, but a damned good bike all the same. It might not be so fuel efficient - right wrist notwithstanding :teeth:, but I bet it would be a damn sight cheaper to service even if you were paying for it.

I know lots of bods say that they are mechanically incompetent and wouldn't know how to go about stuff, but it really is not that difficult to change the oil. Okay, so doing the tappets on an AT or TA is a real pain, but that is just down to the particular bike - and they don't need doing very often, going by owner's experiences.

So, an older bike that doesn't need fully synthetic oil, doesn't need a computer plugging in to do a test or whatever, can be serviced by the average bod with a limited toolkit and with no "service history" for onward sale to worry about, would seem to make sense. I would wager that the not so good fuel consumption, over a more modern bike, would be eclipsed by the vastly reduced servicing costs over any reasonable period of time.

Would I seriously consider buying a new, or even relatively new bike, given what is happening regarding manufacturers attitudes to servicing and warranty work? No I would not. Well, not unless I had money to burn.

Is there a point to this waffle? Probably not for most people, but I'm just wondering if others have been thinking recently along the same lines?

Waffle over. Bet you're wondering why you bothered reading it now, aren't you?



* Not the Terry Pratchett version - "Reflected sound of underground spirits" :teeth:



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Ridden for years
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I love this picture.
R69.jpg
This is the wiring diagram for an R69 BMW. My wife's Golf probably has more wiring in her driver's door than this whole bike.
We have become a throw away society. Why do I say this? because, whilst modern bikes are very clever, I'd like to see you solve some electrical issues when the wiring is fifteen years old plus.
Advancement for advancements sake or marketings sake drives me crazy.
Yes, ABS is clever and probably a life saver, but good riding reduces the number of times you put it to full use.
I'm not being a luddite, maybe we could give half the wiring on new bikes to the copper thieves, that would save them raiding railway lines;)
 

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The Angry Pasty Muncher
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Boris's Moral Dilemma thread, and also that by Africajim regarding warranty work, have got me thinking about the cost of owning a new-ish bike.


Now then, economics*. Yes, modern vehicles are, in the main, more fuel efficient than previous models but does the cost of purchasing and servicing a modern bike make economic sense? You can get a damned good second bike for £2000, maybe not a pristine AT, but a damned good bike all the same. It might not be so fuel efficient - right wrist notwithstanding :teeth:, but I bet it would be a damn sight cheaper to service even if you were paying for it.
If modern cars are more fuel efficent why does the average family size deisel car get around 40mpg, back in the late 80's and early 90's Peugeot 405 and 309 deisels were getting 65mpg. Fact is were putting so much crap in cars that we don't need we're doubling the weight of the dam things
 

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If modern cars are more fuel efficent why does the average family size deisel car get around 40mpg, back in the late 80's and early 90's Peugeot 405 and 309 deisels were getting 65mpg. Fact is were putting so much crap in cars that we don't need we're doubling the weight of the dam things
Yep, one comment that I was going to make about Lutins post - modern vehicles are not necessarily more fuel efficient than older ones, they are just more complex & with claimed "lower emissions"!

I can't see me buying some whizz bang modern thing anytime soon


Phil
 

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one of the lost boys
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Athough not with bikes (thank doG) but older vehicles over here are taxed so high its not economic to try and run them, once its 25 years old however its has Grandads rights and is almost tax free. last year the Gov had a programme to get older cars off the road with a their banger premium, I think cars offered to scrap got a flat rate deduction off the price of a new one. The other gripe is with the low emission sticker that has to displayed over here like a tax disc, without one your barred from most larger cities. So although the car industry is a 'kin rip off they're only doing it 'cos of the government backing and more to say EU Brussels backing. Have a look at the Honda India website they're still flogging bikes with drum brakes new off the factory floor.
If you not happy with the technology of today, options without canbus - service codes - ABS EDC ASR MRSA are available just dont try to register them


POXY EU- rant over
 

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Have a look at the Honda India website they're still flogging bikes with drum brakes new off the factory floor.
From what I saw when I worked out there that's 'cause the Indians want rear drum brakes which is the only brake they use. The front remains steadfastly unused throughout the life of the bike. Actually the CBF125 you get here for £2500 are all made in India and you could buy the same bike with a drum brake for 60,000Rs (£800) the only other difference I can see is (on some models) FI in place of a carb and the tank which had "Hero Honda" on it.

Generally new bikes or cars never make financial sense but everybody likes to have a new something or other and the only new vehicle I ever owned was my Varadero and that was a pre registered one with 0 miles.
 

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Mmm emissions eh?! Right, so what's more economical and fuel efficient? My 31 year old R65 with correctly inflated tyres, or a new car where the owner hasn't checked the tyre pressures for months and is running at least 5 to 10 psi below recommended?
 

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Mmm emissions eh?! Right, so what's more economical and fuel efficient? My 31 year old R65 with correctly inflated tyres, or a new car where the owner hasn't checked the tyre pressures for months and is running at least 5 to 10 psi below recommended?
Well superficially modern cars can be way more efficient but when you factor in the energy needed to make them in the first place I guess it's a different story. I'm sure I read somewhere that 40-50% of a cars lifetime total energy requirements are used in manufacture.
 

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I must admit I'd gone slightly off at a tangent. Snaphappy talked about scrapping old vehicles, but mine's old out of choice not economics. There should be a nod to the differerence by governments.
 

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Well superficially modern cars can be way more efficient but when you factor in the energy needed to make them in the first place I guess it's a different story. I'm sure I read somewhere that 40-50% of a cars lifetime total energy requirements are used in manufacture.
Hmmm, by that token they are very inefficient - if we all ran about in old vehicles we wouldn't need to manufacture (so many) new ones!
Materialistic consumerism/keeping up with the Jonses & all that


Phil
 

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Another issue with the newest breed of hybrids, and there somewhat false cost savings.
Can you imagine the price of the electrical parts when they go wrong?
And the potential problems of higher mileages and things breaking that the commo mechanic has no clue about?
The technology is completely foreign to most, and one the batteries wear out that's more waste!
Bugs me how they fail to point all these points out but just say they have low emissions and decent mpg (worst than a lot of basic diesels, Hondas newest offering the crz barely achieves 50mpg)
 

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Grumpy auld man!
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My Saab is 14 years old, not very fuel efficient by todays standards :confused: but it does the job it was bought for. How much fuel and how much environmental damage is going to be be caused by building a new one for me?


Andy.
 

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The Angry Pasty Muncher
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Another issue with the newest breed of hybrids, and there somewhat false cost savings.
Can you imagine the price of the electrical parts when they go wrong?
Also issues with battery life of a maximum of 15 years at the moment and currently no way as yet of being able to recycle them. How much will that cost to replace the batteries

My Saab is 14 years old, not very fuel efficient by todays standards :confused: but it does the job it was bought for. How much fuel and how much environmental damage is going to be be caused by building a new one for me?


Andy.
I had a SAAB red top motor great speed and performance 220bhp. By nature the modern low pressure Turbo's ( mine wasn't it was HIgh output turbo) are very efficient as they run low compression engines so require as much fuel.
 

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I was astounded at the fuel economy of the Fiat TwinAir motor when the 500 was launched with a claimed combined fuel consumption figure of 68.9mpg. I thought that it would be a good alternative to a diminutive oil burner for someone looking for an economical and reasonable runabout (obviously after a few years once the major depreciation is out the way). Well, apparently all is not well and there are many unhappy TwinAir owners: Fiat500_TwinAir Review 2011

There is also the issue with DPF regeneration on the latest small diesels used in primarily an urban setting that means you need to make a special trip onto a motorway or dual carriageway to get the DPF hot enough to burn off all the soot. That rather dents the overall mpg if you don't count the special trip mileage as useful mileage.

All of these half-truths, underwhelming performances and hidden costs do rather takes the shine off the shiny new stuff.
 

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My four-wheeler is an Ibiza with VWs 1.2 TSi engine, low capacity turbo charged petrol. Having always had diesels in the past I was very impressed with the torque of this engine, it pulls well from low revs and does return unto 60 mpg if driven sensibly. It also has start/stop and brake energy recovery blah blah, but the main point for me was that it was a small engine (so good for the commute when I don't want to ride) yet has the power (105 bhp with the turbo) to drive me to Spain.

There are a lot of electronics, but I tried to keep it simple, and it is nowhere near as wired as my mates old Peugeot 605 where absolutely everything was electric and it was always breaking down :lol:

My Transalp 700, on the other hand returns about 55 mpg on commute or tour, which is about 10p a mile. Oil/filter/tyres/chain sprocket/valves etc I recon is another 10p a mile, so overall it does work out cheaper, but I am a bit miffed that my car can get better mpg.

The Transalp has already had the fuel tank level sender unit failure (£600 under warranty) and I'm sure something else will go in the 3 years more I want to keep it. I wish I could buy a bike which I could honestly say will still be running in 15 years time, I think the engines are great but the accessories are what will kill it.

Saying that I will have done 100,000 miles in 3 years time, so might not last to age 15...
 

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The Angry Pasty Muncher
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There is also the issue with DPF regeneration on the latest small diesels used in primarily an urban setting that means you need to make a special trip onto a motorway or dual carriageway to get the DPF hot enough to burn off all the soot. That rather dents the overall mpg if you don't count the special trip mileage as useful mileage.
Thats common with all tractors, sorry deisels driving them on short journeys and at slow speed doesn't get them hot enough to clean burn which is why there's so many problems with EGR valves and turbo's at the moment coke-ing up. There not a manufacturer out thats thats cracked the EGR valve problem and most of it is caused by the way we drive our modern euro boxes.

Our fleet of cars at work are mainly Audi A4's and A6's the ones going up and down the motorway all the time don't seem to have any problems the pool car A4 estate used just for going between factories and first aid runs just needed the head off to be decoked because of short run. Same with my truck short runs about 12mths ago my light came on and it went into safe mode plugged it in "high barometric pressure in the expansion manifold fault" Egr valve coked up the car reduced the power to save the turbo now i just put a FORTE injector cleaner in it every 6 months to keep it tip top
 
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