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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
FYI to all AT owners, the biggest single improvement to performance i have done and i highly recommend you do,
is upgrade the Ignition map for decent UK and European fuel. The stock map is very retarded to run on crappy fuel found in the likes of Africa. My AT RD07A did not like to drop much below 3000 RPM ( or 2500 after exhaust mods) before the dreaded chain snatch set in, which i believe is responsible for the wear on the gearbox sprocket shaft.
After reprogramming the ignition map, the motor now will pull from 1500 RPM In top gear !
It is now so much nicer to ride and is now the bike it always should have been.
The only sensible way to do this (dont even think about moving the ign pick ups!) is to change the Ignition module to a modified pre programmed box, or a programmable box. But a slight hitch here, RD07 and RD07A boxes are different, the RD07 has twin pickups and the 7A only a single.

The map i used (brilliant!) came from this company who also supply pr-programmed or programmable boxes for a whole range of AT models etc.
Digital Double-CDI for Honda XRV750 Africa Twin (RD04/RD07)
They are a very helpful company and a contact name is Felix Möhrle <[email protected]>
However they dont do one for the RD07A !
There is another company called Carmo which does units, for the RD07 (not 7A) but they give very little information, which i was uneasy about.
The box i used for my 7A came from this company:
SPARKER HONDA TCI - IgniTech Přelouč
They produce all sorts of programmable ignition boxes for many motorcycles, race etc and from what i can see really know their stuff !!
You will need to program this with a laptop, but is not difficult and i just used the Ign map from the prev. CDI shop.
The supplied box just plugs in and looks identical to the original, very good quality.

If any one is interested, I have the ignition maps, std and uprated, along with wiring dias for the plugs, photos etc.

Do this and be amazed at the difference.!!
 

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Interesting article
So which cdi version did you purchase from IgniTech
Also what is the difference between a standard and an uprated map ?
So it fixed your low down fueling maybe by advancing the ignition ? Any other benefits
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
If you click on the IgniTech link, it takes you to the model for the RD07A which i bought. Otherwise trying to find which box you will need from their range can be a bit tricky.
Trying to describe the difference between the maps would take ages, but basically the improved map gives more advance at idle and through the range. I have attached both maps so you can see. Ignore any of the blurb in the box underneath each map. I programmed the figures into the IgniTech unit (but graphed them out as a double check).
Your comment about fueling makes no sense as the XRV runs carbs not Fuel injection!! The fueling is a totally different chicken, this is just the ignition required to set off the combustion process to give maximum power at a given RPM, relative to the fuel Octane being used. If you used the improved map in Africa on some really low Octane crappy fuel, the engine combustion would detonate ( commonly referred to as Pinking) and could cause serious damage to the piston etc. If i did find myself in that situation, i would simply swap back to the original unit, in minutes.

You would not have to do that with the Digital Double unit as it has both maps in it, you just swap over a jumper connector.

Anyway, the upshot is that the improved ignition suits the 95 ron pump fuel and unleashes the extra torque and power from the engine. Haven't had a chance to check fuel consumption, but because you can ride in a higher gear at lower speeds, it must be improved.
Its your choice, but it is the single best modification (and i have many) that i have done to my AT.
Do it and you will not be disappointed!

FYI: I have been building race, rally and road engines for most of my life, Currently working at Mercedes F1,
so i think i know a little about this topic!!
 

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Hi
I looked at their website and searched by products by motorcycle. The only AT listening is 1990-1995. I must be on the wrong page ?
Could you explain to me the two graphs you include in your post also it’s showing RD04 at the top but I assume we are discussing RD07a’s.
So you can upload two maps and switch between them ?
My bike is road use only with some motorways in between A roads.
Regards Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
To recap: If you have an RD07 it is simpler to get the Digital double CDI unit because it has the correct updated map installed and the stock map.. If you are in Doubt, email Felix Mohrle there and he will sort you out. If you have an RD07A then the only option you have is use the Ignitech unit that i have put the link to. This comes with only a basic map, but you dont need to start the engine on it. You have to reprogram the map using the data from the Digital double site.
I only included the screenshots to show you the map differences. What you do if you want the map for any of the bikes listed RD04 etc is download their software (its all free) and maps and if you look at the screenshot where it lists the models there is a dropdown chevron, which will list the models. Select the one for RD07 and the map will be loaded into the software, ready for you to upload into the Programmable Version of their CDI unit. But of course, you are not using their unit, you are using the Ignitech box. You then just take a screenshot of the ignition map figures and program them into the Igni tech box. Fit box to bike and Et voila, job done.
As I have done all this, if you buy the Ignitech box, I can supply you just the advance figures to put in at set RPM points,
so you dont need to go through all the palava. If you really think you cant do that, You could either post me the box and i will program it for you, or take a trip to my house and i can do it there. I live in Brackley Northants.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
FYI: It does not matter what sort of riding you use the bike for, the improved low down torque range will benefit everyone.
If you use the IgnTech box you will need the interface cable to connect the box to the laptop or pc. There is a small charge for this cable but it is advisable to get it to prevent any connection problems.
On the IgnTech software it has to search for a coms connection which by default is set to port 1 ( i think) Change this to all or any and it will set up ok and you can program the figures in.
This took me a while to figure out as i could not get the box connect to the laptop! The instructions from Ignitech did not mention this. All the other settings about crank sensors etc are all set up by default, so dont change them!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Digital double have an experimental updated map for 98 Ron fuel. I have not tried it and i think that the stock AT compression ratio does not warrant using 98 Ron fuel. If you raise the Compression Ratio to 10:1 or higher, using special pistons (i have considered this) then yes 98 Ron and ignition mods would be a good idea. I wont be doing it.

Fyi: If you download the Digital double software (free) from the CDI tuner screen, to see the various ignition profiles,
Click, Profile, then Create from Template. This will then load the various bike ignition maps, accessible from the drop
down arrow
under choose a template. You can then see the different maps to compare as required.
 

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When I saw this thread I became very excited because this is an easy mod and it has a big gain. But being me I started to think how to complicate it :D
I noticed the guys at Igni Tech have this -> SPARKER DC-CDI-P2 - IgniTech Přelouč , which has a a TPS input and even has a second map so you can revert to the stock one if needed.
Personally I think that if you have an engine load sensor - better use it :) It's not like my XRV's CDI gives a damn if the sensor is plugged in or not, but maybe if you have a programmable CDI things could get better! Perhaps it's a good idea to tune this on a dyno...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
When I saw this thread I became very excited because this is an easy mod and it has a big gain. But being me I started to think how to complicate it :D
I noticed the guys at Igni Tech have this -> SPARKER DC-CDI-P2 - IgniTech Přelouč , which has a a TPS input and even has a second map so you can revert to the stock one if needed.
Personally I think that if you have an engine load sensor - better use it :) It's not like my XRV's CDI gives a damn if the sensor is plugged in or not, but maybe if you have a programmable CDI things could get better! Perhaps it's a good idea to tune this on a dyno...
Hi, this is exactly the unit i have used on my RD07A with tps etc. I'm not sure that you can have a second map, if you have it wired up exactly as the original Honda unit as i think the two input channels are already used. However, it is such a simple operation to just swap back to the original CDI for the std map hat this becomes a bit irrelevant.
As for a dyno test, again a bit pointless unless you have uprated cam profiles and / or compression ratio. True you may gain a little here and there, but the AT is not a race bike! I doubt you would feel the difference when riding.
The point is, the map that i have used is such a revelation to the std map, why bother.
I have done plenty of dyno test work in my time in motorsport that i can tell you that it is quite time consuming (expensive) and give you machine more hell and wear than you can ever give it on the road (rear tyre will be pretty mullered!). If you really want more more top end power, fit a straight through silencer (no 4 stroke LIKES back pressure), drill a couple of 25 mm-ish holes in the side of the airbox ( block off with tape in v cold weather). Fit a K&N air filter but machine off at least 25-30 mm of the top of the inlet snorkel that it fits over as it is too close to the filter for max air intake. This allows for filter area to be effectively used. Radius off the top of the snorkel edges. I used SUGRU (google it) to improve the radius for better air flow, but dont go mad and make sure the filter will fit over it.! See attachments, note the different colours of sugru are because i didnt have enough of one colour!! These mods do result in more induction noise (a roar!) but that does not bother me with (custom )earplugs (i wear all the time anyway).
These are the mods i have done and it improved it noticeably before the ign map mod. I did not have to adjust the carb fueling as mine always tended to run slightly rich, but always check the plug colour after de restricting the exhaust.
After the ign map change all the gains from these mods were enhanced. This is far more cost effective than a rolling road session, but if you fuelling is not correct, then yes a rolling road session is a must to prevent engine damage.
 

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Do the airbox mods demand rejetting? I have also thought about the dynojet kits as it is again an easy mod which in combination with all the other mods you mentioned should have a big impact.
I have searched the web for photos or descriptions of XRV air box mods but until today I haven't seen any. Thank you for the detailed explanation! Just one question while we are on this topic - the holes should be blocked while riding in cold weather because of the air density? Or just to prevent water getting in?
The exhaust is already derestricted and fueling for now is OK but maybe if I do the airbox mods it will become lean.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I did address the carb re-jetting issue in the previous article, so rather than re do it again here, please re read the previous post. The dyno jet kit will not give extra power if the fueling is already within range except for track use possibly. You cant get more power by just dumping in extra fuel, just sooty plugs, bore wear and lighter pockets!!
Again i re-iterate, the Africa Twin is not a race bike. The airbox mods did not affect my carb jetting, the exhaust de restricting will have more effect on that, so if your plug colour is ok, stay away from Kits like Dyno Jet.
If the plugs show lean running, then perhaps a dyno jet kit would help, BUT always check your carbs are clean and free from jet blockages FIRST.
If you do go the Dyno Jet route, you really must have a rolling road session to set it and check it. I have seen too many Cylinder bores that have bad wear due to the oil being broken down by excess fuel (bore wash)
because the bright spark owner fitted larger Main Jets in the belief he would get more power, but did not get it dyno run checked!
Taping over the Airbox holes mods in cold weather will help prevent Carburettor Icing which can prevent the slide or butterfly from closing properly, which comes as a bit of a shock when you attempt to throttle back !!
This can happen particularly on long straight motorway type roads (even after a coupe of minutes) as the throttle is not being opened and closed as in normal more twisting roads. This is because of Bernoulli's principle : Where there is a drop in pressure (air flowing over the main jet in the slide or butterfly) there is also a drop in temperature, which can form ice if the ambient temperature is also quite low ( not necessarily freezing) and damp.
This has not happend to me on the AT as i ride generally in warmer weather, its just a precaution. It has happened to me several times in the past driving carburetted cars!

The normal air to the airbox is fed from between the V of the cylinders, so is warmer, but restrictive for top end power. The extra holes addresses the restriction and on hot days the air comes mainly from a cooler supply (fuel tank sides).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hi, this is exactly the unit i have used on my RD07A with tps etc. I'm not sure that you can have a second map, if you have it wired up exactly as the original Honda unit as i think the two input channels are already used. However, it is such a simple operation to just swap back to the original CDI for the std map hat this becomes a bit irrelevant.
As for a dyno test, again a bit pointless unless you have uprated cam profiles and / or compression ratio. True you may gain a little here and there, but the AT is not a race bike! I doubt you would feel the difference when riding.
The point is, the map that i have used is such a revelation to the std map, why bother.
I have done plenty of dyno test work in my time in motorsport that i can tell you that it is quite time consuming (expensive) and give you machine more hell and wear than you can ever give it on the road (rear tyre will be pretty mullered!). If you really want more more top end power, fit a straight through silencer (no 4 stroke LIKES back pressure), drill a couple of 25 mm-ish holes in the side of the airbox ( block off with tape in v cold weather). Fit a K&N air filter but machine off at least 25-30 mm of the top of the inlet snorkel that it fits over as it is too close to the filter for max air intake. This allows for filter area to be effectively used. Radius off the top of the snorkel edges. I used SUGRU (google it) to improve the radius for better air flow, but dont go mad and make sure the filter will fit over it.! See attachments, note the different colours of sugru are because i didnt have enough of one colour!! These mods do result in more induction noise (a roar!) but that does not bother me with (custom )earplugs (i wear all the time anyway).
These are the mods i have done and it improved it noticeably before the ign map mod. I did not have to adjust the carb fueling as mine always tended to run slightly rich, but always check the plug colour after de restricting the exhaust.
After the ign map change all the gains from these mods were enhanced. This is far more cost effective than a rolling road session, but if you fuelling is not correct, then yes a rolling road session is a must to prevent engine damage.
Just to clarify a minor mistake in my above post: My unit from IgniTech is a TCi unit, NOT a CDi unit. If you click on my original post link to IgniTech, this will take you to the unit I purchased, which has all the inputs for throttle position sensor, but not provision for a second map.
 

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I finally found the time to write a post here... Sorry for the delay! For two months(and sadly 2000 km) I have the ignitech module installed. It had some strange numbers, some of which I corrected, but it has been a very worthwhile upgrade! I would put it second after the WP fork swap in my list.
The guys at IgniTech made it and sent it in about a week time. It was truly a plug and play with just a hole cut in the underseat compartment for the DB9 coupler so I can program it easily.
Here is the "factory" table:
166635


And here is my version:
166636


Green: in the Digital-Double screenshot the base advance is 22.6 degrees. Is the RD07A different? Is it safe to put 22.6 degrees?!?
Orange: I increased ever so slightly these timings even though I am not sure I gained something but for sure I didn't mess it up :)
Blue: I increased the advance in the idle until the rpm stopped increasing - around 29-30*. I then put 20 for safety and just "bridged" these numbers with the ones above 4000. Now the idle is with a little bit lower throttle(set by the adjustment screw).

I even played with negative advance in the interval from 4300 to 9000 rpm with 0-2% TPS so I have pops and bangs when engine braking on higher rpm(while canyon carving for example :D ). But for some reason the pops were not immediately after I throttle down but with some variable delay - after from 2 to 10 seconds. I then decided that this was too childish and I have an adventure bike, not a racing one and removed that :D

Edit: I forgot to mention - I found a dyno suited for motorcycles and it's 60 euro an hour. I might call a friend who has knowledge in engine tuning and try to make it a little bit better :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hi, also please excuse the late reply!. At first i was a little confused what your ignition map was showing as it is a different mapping software to mine (latest version?). I have attached the screen shots of what i get when i hook up my laptop to my ign module. There are 2 screen shots as i could not capture the top and bottom of my program. Note the program states it is for an XLV600 but this is the base profile ignitech said to use as this has the correct settings for the pick ups or something!
However, this is for my xrv750 RD07A , programmed with Double digital's Improved map values. I have actually noticed a programming error in my map as the 5 deg advance should be 10 deg (will adjust shortly) with a 5 deg base advance. Strangely it pulls from 1500 with less advance than the legacy map. I can only think this is down to adjustments being made to the map by the throttle position sensor, which my module does connect to. Interestingly this is something that is not shown on my mapping software, but is on yours. I do note there is a tab on yours to just show ignition advance only.

To your Map: - The sensor advance figure 22.6 deg is not the static advance, the base advance is 8 degrees (see attached edited screenshot). No base advance should set at 22 deg!! I am surprised it does not kick back when trying to start the engine! If you look at the line of the curve, note it always advances, never retarding which is what your numbers are showing.
I would suggest you leave the throttle position values as standard, program in a base advance of 5 degrees, then program the values as per the double digital map (or my map) This may be easier to see if you just use the ignition only tab. After doing this, now check to see how the throttle position values have changed (do a screenshot and post to me please!). If they have not adjusted automatically ( i think they will) , you may need advice from Ignitech about what to use.
Try these settings and see how the bike rides.
Just another question, what grade fuel are you using there? Do you have the E10 (10% Ethanol) as standard and Super Unleaded (98 Ron) with 5% Ethanol? They have just introduced E10 here in the UK but I think this does not work well in the AT as some years ago i had to use this in France. This made the engine exhaust very smelly (according to my mate following me). According to Honda, it is ok to use in AT's from 1992, but i am not sure about it attacking the inside of the fuel tank. The engine should run better with this improved ignition map and it is more tolerant to detonation due to over ignition advance.

Dave.
 

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Hi, also please excuse the late reply!. At first i was a little confused what your ignition map was showing as it is a different mapping software to mine (latest version?). I have attached the screen shots of what i get when i hook up my laptop to my ign module. There are 2 screen shots as i could not capture the top and bottom of my program. Note the program states it is for an XLV600 but this is the base profile ignitech said to use as this has the correct settings for the pick ups or something!
However, this is for my xrv750 RD07A , programmed with Double digital's Improved map values. I have actually noticed a programming error in my map as the 5 deg advance should be 10 deg (will adjust shortly) with a 5 deg base advance. Strangely it pulls from 1500 with less advance than the legacy map. I can only think this is down to adjustments being made to the map by the throttle position sensor, which my module does connect to. Interestingly this is something that is not shown on my mapping software, but is on yours. I do note there is a tab on yours to just show ignition advance only.

To your Map: - The sensor advance figure 22.6 deg is not the static advance, the base advance is 8 degrees (see attached edited screenshot). No base advance should set at 22 deg!! I am surprised it does not kick back when trying to start the engine! If you look at the line of the curve, note it always advances, never retarding which is what your numbers are showing.
I would suggest you leave the throttle position values as standard, program in a base advance of 5 degrees, then program the values as per the double digital map (or my map) This may be easier to see if you just use the ignition only tab. After doing this, now check to see how the throttle position values have changed (do a screenshot and post to me please!). If they have not adjusted automatically ( i think they will) , you may need advice from Ignitech about what to use.
Try these settings and see how the bike rides.
Just another question, what grade fuel are you using there? Do you have the E10 (10% Ethanol) as standard and Super Unleaded (98 Ron) with 5% Ethanol? They have just introduced E10 here in the UK but I think this does not work well in the AT as some years ago i had to use this in France. This made the engine exhaust very smelly (according to my mate following me). According to Honda, it is ok to use in AT's from 1992, but i am not sure about it attacking the inside of the fuel tank. The engine should run better with this improved ignition map and it is more tolerant to detonation due to over ignition advance.

Dave.
Hi Dave!

I also purchased the Ignitech unit for my RD07A some time ago and love the extra grunt on mid and high revs! But the problem is that I don't like the behavior of the bike with low rpm. It's so tricky to drive in city environments and little trails/forest. I kind of suddenly cuts off when you loosen the throttle and the same thing happens when applying throttle from 0. I've dropped the bike multiple times because of this "bog down" (sorry English is not my native tongue).
To rule out carb etc issues I did today a test drive with the original Honda unit and the problem was gone.

I also have the same looking SW as user "nhadjinikolov" with the exact same strange map delivered from Ignitech.
Could you please download the latest SW and see what it looks like with your bike? Then you can also save the config in a file and share with us.

My friend bought also a Ignitech unit for his Transalp 600 at the same time and strangely it doesn't have this same problem.

For reference here are all the settings in my profile attached.
Rectangle Font Parallel Screenshot Pattern

Rectangle Font Parallel Screenshot Pattern

Font Line Parallel Pattern Rectangle
 

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Hello Misna,
To be fair - I haven't ridden with the factory ignition map from Ignitech for more than the few hundred meters near the office when I fitted the module and I don't know if it handles the way you say yours does. I still haven't found the time to try what Dave explained in his last post.
However until today I have made a little over 3000 kilometers with the new TCI in twisty mountain roads and both slow and fast offroad riding and I haven't noticed any "holes" in the rev range. This August and a few days in September I used the bike to commute and some times I need to ride the clutch a lot because of the morning traffic or ride on first gear in idle or just a little over. No problems there either. If you want I can send you my file and try it out or just change the map to similar values. All other settings are the same as your screenshot.
I will try to find time to go to the office with the bike this week and upload the factory map to see if I have these problems.

I found on another forum this thread(It's in french): [BLABLA] CDI IGNITECH - Page 41 - ~ TRANSALPAGE ~
One of the guys shared this map:

Aren't these 44-45-46 degrees a little too much?
 

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Hello Misna,
To be fair - I haven't ridden with the factory ignition map from Ignitech for more than the few hundred meters near the office when I fitted the module and I don't know if it handles the way you say yours does. I still haven't found the time to try what Dave explained in his last post.
However until today I have made a little over 3000 kilometers with the new TCI in twisty mountain roads and both slow and fast offroad riding and I haven't noticed any "holes" in the rev range. This August and a few days in September I used the bike to commute and some times I need to ride the clutch a lot because of the morning traffic or ride on first gear in idle or just a little over. No problems there either. If you want I can send you my file and try it out or just change the map to similar values. All other settings are the same as your screenshot.
I will try to find time to go to the office with the bike this week and upload the factory map to see if I have these problems.

I found on another forum this thread(It's in french): [BLABLA] CDI IGNITECH - Page 41 - ~ TRANSALPAGE ~
One of the guys shared this map:

Aren't these 44-45-46 degrees a little too much?
Hi!

I also found that map. Maybe more advance is ok when the engine is not in heavy load? (10% throttle)

I'll try that tonight and also I will call a local shop how much they would charge for a dyno run to adjust the advances.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I have not had time to download the new mapping software, but i would state that the map provided by Ignitech is just a basic map to get the engine running. It is not based on actual testing!! Running 45 deg advance in this engine is way too much and will cause detonation under load. That sort of ignition advance is only required when the engine has a poor combustion & piston shape leading to very slow flame propagation. Most engines do not require more than 38 deg max (two valves per cylinder) but the AT has 3 valves and two plugs (to make up for the plug not being central). This arrangement gives reasonable combustion efficiency so max Ignition advance would not benefit from being more than 35 deg.
I would suggest that if you look at the advance figures in my software ( LH column) and use those to alter your map you will not be disappointed (note 5deg @ 500rpm should be 8 deg). This map was developed on a dyno and i am using it so can verify its effectiveness! A dyno test session will probably result in very similar figures, but this does give your engine (and rear tyre) a very hard time, stressing it way more than you can when you ride it!
Also depending on what fuel you have available, if you use E10 (10% Ethanol) this map should help but I personally try to avoid it as the Ethanol's water absorbing properties and seal compatibility issues are not something i want!
I will try to download the new software and have a look at it this evening.
 

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I have not had time to download the new mapping software, but i would state that the map provided by Ignitech is just a basic map to get the engine running. It is not based on actual testing!! Running 45 deg advance in this engine is way too much and will cause detonation under load. That sort of ignition advance is only required when the engine has a poor combustion & piston shape leading to very slow flame propagation. Most engines do not require more than 38 deg max (two valves per cylinder) but the AT has 3 valves and two plugs (to make up for the plug not being central). This arrangement gives reasonable combustion efficiency so max Ignition advance would not benefit from being more than 35 deg.
I would suggest that if you look at the advance figures in my software ( LH column) and use those to alter your map you will not be disappointed (note 5deg @ 500rpm should be 8 deg). This map was developed on a dyno and i am using it so can verify its effectiveness! A dyno test session will probably result in very similar figures, but this does give your engine (and rear tyre) a very hard time, stressing it way more than you can when you ride it!
Also depending on what fuel you have available, if you use E10 (10% Ethanol) this map should help but I personally try to avoid it as the Ethanol's water absorbing properties and seal compatibility issues are not something i want!
I will try to download the new software and have a look at it this evening.
Hi!

As you see those big advance numbers are only in use when throttle is 10% and under.

On full throttle the max advance is 35.

Are you sure you are using the TP sensor or do you have some older version of the Ignitech HW also?
Mine is TCIP4.

Br,
Mikko
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I have now downloaded the latest software and filled in the figures from my older version and these are the values i currently have in my Ignition unit, I have not tried to connect to my bike with the new program, so these are just the advance figures and RPM for you to program in.
I have not changed any of the throttle position values as i dont know if the general values in the 'Bike' tab are correct as these values should have been set by Ignitech for you.
These figures could be tweaked on a rolling road as my bike has a de restricted (straight through) silencer, which i would advise, but the stock silencer should still allow much improved low RPM performance.
Try this map and let me know how you get on with it.
As for the question about the throttle position sensor, my unit is wired for it but there are no values that show in my software, so i dont really know if it has any effect on the map.
Photo attached of my bike with modified stock looking silencer.
 

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