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Space Emperor
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Discussion Starter #1
Some time ago I wrote Facet, asking about why my pump was making such noise. The reply was quite interesting, so I thought I would share it, as I know many people here use the their pumps ...

Here's my mail:

I bought this pump 2 years ago, through Rugged Roads, and it's a 40105, as far as I know. The pump rattles and clatters very loudly at random times and intervals. When it's cold, when it's hot, going fast, going slow, full tank, empty tank, there's no pattern as far as I can tell. A LOT of people are having this very same issue, and many choose to change the pump to a different brand, as noises like that certainly doesn't inspire confidence.

I would like to ask if this is common, and why it's making this noise, and finally, if there's anything I can do to make it run more quiet and smooth.

Looking forward to your answer. Many thanks in advance!

Best Regards,
Thomas


and the replies:

Hi Thomas
Thank you for your email and for using our Facet fuel pumps. In many cases the noise is coming from the internal piston hitting against the seat of the outlet fitting. However when the pump is fully primed the piston is protected by the fuel and will not slam into the seat as hard. If this is the case with your application, I can only guess that the fuel pump is losing prime or is not getting enough fuel and some reasons for this are as follows.
1) Low voltage
2) Bad ground
3) Pump is mounted to far from the fuel tank. (40105 should be mounted within 12 inches of the bottom of the tank.
4) Fuel filter is to small preventing fuel flow.
5) Wrong fuel pump for the application. (The 40105 is much too big of a pump for your motorcycle, I would recommend a 40177 which is a 1-2psi pump and is rated for these small engines)
Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Paul Puleo
National Sales Manager
Motor Components, LLC


AND:

Thomas
You are running the pump at shutoff because it’s to large for your application. The 40105 is rated for 30gph and you only need about 3gph. You are probably over heating the pump.

Paul Puleo
National Sales Manager
Motor Components, LLC
 

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I fitted a one on my RD03 and hated it instantly,

clattery,

heavy inrush current draw, ( so much the neutral light would dim as the pump clicked, ok, wiring on the RD03 is classic 1980s so may have added to this :) )

Replaced it with a new original design diaphragm, which give a smoother delivery and pressure. (I have the FET on the shelf to convert the points to a low current trigger and so make it last even longer than the 25year the last one managed :thumbup: )

I know there are folk who love them and have high mileages and no issue, and it is the recommended upgrade to remove the risk of the original failing,

but my view is carry a spare original style pump which is a straight swap, on your RTW or other adventure, rather than fixing something that is not broken yet :D


My 2p
 

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It's going on 9 years since I started the thread on the 40105 and it's installation and it has performed flawless since then....well at least for me and yes I've heard it clatter. It's rare...but
I've heard it. It's only when my tank is low and switching the petcock and it seems to go away. It also seems no worse for wear when it does happen and I've never felt it get hot nor have I seen fuel spew overboard from the carbs onto the ground. I'm not sure why your pump is always noisy Thomas.
Are you using OEM fuel delivery lines and fuel filter? Maybe it's time to buy one of those 40177 pumps Thomas and give it a test then report back. 1-2 psi does seem a bit on the low side. Funny that a Sales Manager from Facet reported back to you and not an engineer and interesting how he calls it a small engine. My 40105 is not broke yet...so until then.
cheers.
 

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Space Emperor
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613 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
It's going on 9 years since I started the thread on the 40105 and it's installation and it has performed flawless since then....well at least for me and yes I've heard it clatter. It's rare...but
I've heard it. It's only when my tank is low and switching the petcock and it seems to go away. It also seems no worse for wear when it does happen and I've never felt it get hot nor have I seen fuel spew overboard from the carbs onto the ground. I'm not sure why your pump is always noisy Thomas.
Are you using OEM fuel delivery lines and fuel filter? Maybe it's time to buy one of those 40177 pumps Thomas and give it a test then report back. 1-2 psi does seem a bit on the low side. Funny that a Sales Manager from Facet reported back to you and not an engineer and interesting how he calls it a small engine. My 40105 is not broke yet...so until then.
cheers.
Yeah, I'm looking at getting the 40177, but I'm still asking myself why Rugged Roads would sells a pump that's so far from spec? 30 gallons pr hour?? ... Either way, it's been clattering since I bought it, so I feel I bought a duff pump, to be honest. All I read was that this was normal, and that it's 'install and forget'. But it's been a huge stress factor, being on the bike in the middle of nowhere, and the pump sounds like it's ready to quit. I'm still not sure whether or not it's the reason the bike has been running bad for years, but recently I noticed that the bike starts to run poorly when the tank goes below half full. This is by coincidence the time where the pump starts to hammer loudly. It does make a bit of sense, doesn't it? I'm actually hoping it's the pump, because that would be very easy to fix, even though I would have to shell out even more money for yet another pump.

Does anyone know the specs of the original pump?

I'm not too concerned with the guys title, GSPD750. He could have asked an engineer. Besides, it's hardly rocket science, matching a pump for a given application ... I'm sure that in their world, it IS a small engine
 

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I'm sure there was a comment a while ago that the replacement pump should have fuel shut off when not running, aparently not all Facets have this (prevents the carbs flooding from the head of fuel, if you have a leaky float valve).
Worth checking.

Phil

sent from my 'phone
 

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Interesting. I've also got the pump that RR supplied. Seems this doesn't have a Check Valve or Positive Shut Off Valve fitted whereas the 40177 does. Thats rated at 7 GPH and 1 to 2 PSI.

However looking at the dimensions the 40105 is 2.9 inches long from end to end (where the fuel pipes go) and the 40177 is 3.39 inches long.

Check this site out for detailed info.

Cube Fuel-Pumps | Motor Components, LLC | Facet Purolator
 

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I read on KTM board that for 950 Adventure it was recommend to use 40171 . Africa twin has even smaller engine , so it would make sense to use smaller pump to awoid flooding the carbs . I guess there's only way to find out . Let us know what results you get with 40177 .
 

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I read on KTM board that for 950 Adventure it was recommend to use 40171 . Africa twin has even smaller engine , so it would make sense to use smaller pump to awoid flooding the carbs . I guess there's only way to find out . Let us know what results you get with 40177 .
the KTM uses the same mitubishi pump as the OEM Honda
 

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Space Emperor
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613 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
I think I'm gonna go for the 40178, 15 gallons pr hour, 3,5-2psi (40105 is 30 gallons and 4.5-3psi). It also has both shut off valve and check valve, whatever that is.

I'm worried that the 40171 is too small and may not have enough pressure. 40178 is right in the middle of the 2.

What are your thoughts on this?

PS. Does anyone know what the "Lift Minimum Dry" parameter is?
 

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The Angry Pasty Muncher
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I think I'm gonna go for the 40178, 15 gallons pr hour, 3,5-2psi (40105 is 30 gallons and 4.5-3psi). It also has both shut off valve and check valve, whatever that is.

I'm worried that the 40171 is too small and may not have enough pressure. 40178 is right in the middle of the 2.

What are your thoughts on this?

PS. Does anyone know what the "Lift Minimum Dry" parameter is?
Buy a genuine Honda one then you will get the RIGHT / CORRECT spec one for the job and you won't be iffing and amming if you bought the correct spec one for the life of you owning the bike.

From reading this thread it appears FACET don't do one which is the correct spec for the bikes so why fit one which isn't the correct spec for the bike?? the mind boggles;)
 

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one of the lost boys
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I had a facet on the list of upgrades to do when I got the RD04. After talking to an engineer I was advised to get a set of new contacts for the original pump and carry them instead of changing something that currently works to something that may work. I had the pump apart last week to check the points and everything looks fine. Contacts are back in the toolbox.
By his reckoning the points fail, not the whole pump

I'll keep my fingers crossed
 

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Space Emperor
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Discussion Starter #14
Buy a genuine Honda one then you will get the RIGHT / CORRECT spec one for the job and you won't be iffing and amming if you bought the correct spec one for the life of you owning the bike.

From reading this thread it appears FACET don't do one which is the correct spec for the bikes so why fit one which isn't the correct spec for the bike?? the mind boggles:wink:
I had a facet on the list of upgrades to do when I got the RD04. After talking to an engineer I was advised to get a set of new contacts for the original pump and carry them instead of changing something that currently works to something that may work. I had the pump apart last week to check the points and everything looks fine. Contacts are back in the toolbox.
By his reckoning the points fail, not the whole pump

I'll keep my fingers crossed
I totally agree with you guys! The original with a spare set of contacts is by far the best solution. Problem is that I don't have the original pump, and it's 145+ bleedin' euro on ebay!!!!

I do have a Mitsubishi pump, but as far as I know, the previous owner had it installed when the original broke down somewhere in Thailand, and all they could find was this pump, probably from a car. It looks suspiciously much like the AT pump, hereunder the contacts, and may actually have the same specs. I will investigate further, and maybe post a pic here when I return home.

Edit: I just found this page, where a guy says it's better than the standard Varadero pump!! The International Honda Varadero Pages

It's the Mitsubishi V6 pump I have ... Maybe it would be better to change back to this pump? The contacts look exactly like the ones on the AT pump, so if I'm lucky they are a match!

Today I have dug out some fuel line I bought from David Silver, and will change all lines above the pump, just to be sure they are not the wrong dimension or kinked somehwere. The filter is new, and should not be a problem.
 

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Space Emperor
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Discussion Starter #15
I just ordered the 40178 on aircraftspruce.com for 47usd. Will probably test it, and let you know if it's more suitable than the 40105, which at present, looks like overkill, AND has no shut off valve and check valve.
 

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PS. Does anyone know what the "Lift Minimum Dry" parameter is?
"Lift Minimum Dry" parameter?
If my memory and my ability to translate English into Swedish, then
“Minimum Dry Lift” is the minimum height a pump can lift fluid without being primed.
A primed pump can typically lift twice that height as a thumb of rule.
The pump makers uses the minimum height parameter so that users know that as long they install the pump in an application were an un-primed pump never have to lift higher than the rated Minimum Dry Lift the pump will work.
As for choosing the right fuel pump.
The Africa Twin could be run with the fuel pump by-passed as long as there is fuel above a certain level in the tank. This level or rather the volume serves a natural pressure producer on the fuel.
So a fuel pump for the Africa Twin does not need to produce high pressures to keep the bike running.
Flow ratings? How much do the Africa Twin use in fuel when driven hard?
If you manage to drive at 200 km/h (Yeah right) and the consumption is 1 liter / 10 km then what required flow should the fuel pump be designed for? 20 liters / hour. That’s 0,3333 liters / minute.
Do your own calculations on your bikes consumption.
One has to consider pressure drops in the fuel line originating from filters, fuel pipe lengths and diameters, changes in heights etc. but still installing a fuel pump designed to fit a 4-wheel drive Jeep with a V6 engine of 4 liters seems to me to be a bit overkill.
 

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I've never had a pump fail in 11yrs....
Just change the points! And carry spare points if travelling..
Simples :lol:
 

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Hi, sorry if I'm hijacking this Facet pump thread with a question that's not Facet pump related [edit: but related to noisy Facet pump copy]

Yesterday i took the original pump of to check the breaker points and they were both quite nagged and they were very angled ---/ /--- so i thought it was about to give up.

Therefore I bought a new pump today at Biltema in Sweden (budget auto spare parts) and I found a pump that looks exactly the same as the Facet pump, even same measures and specs. I installed it like this: http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/mechanical-advice/9462-facet-fuel-pump-installation-long.html

I then turned on the ignition, crossed my fingers and started the bike. It started mediately and the engine sounded like it got the fuel it needed. But when I killed it with the killed switch the engine died but the pump was "ticking" very loud and very much. When I turned of the ignition it stopped and when I turned the ignition on again it kept turned off. But I tried to restart it and the same thing happened: Ignition - Start - Pump ON - killed engine - pump still on - killed ignition - pump off - ignition on - pump still off.

So, my main question, is there any relay that gives power to the pump when the engine is on, and why is it still giving power to the pump even if the engine isn't on?
Anything I can do to make the pump work only when I have the engine on and when push the start button? As it is now It sounds like it pumping fuel to the carbs and I'm afraid it will be to much so it bleeds to the cylinders if the needle fails to work by some dirt or something?

Is the facet pump doing the same thing?

Thanks for any advice! //Phille:)
 

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Toolbox
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Hi, sorry if I'm hijacking this Facet pump thread with a question that's not Facet pump related.
No, not at all. What´s the point in killing a perfectly well working thread on a different topic? Is your "create a new thread" button broke or the search function out of order?
 

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No, not at all. What´s the point in killing a perfectly well working thread on a different topic? Is your "create a new thread" button broke or the search function out of order?
Dude, KCCO!:rolleyes:

I apologied in advance since It's not about a Facet pump but if you read what I wrote you'll see that my question was related to the topic since my pump is an exact copy of the Facet pump and therefore I asked if it's a normal construction that the pump is so noisy. I might be to used to other forums were it's ok to ask related questions in an existing thread instead of creating new threads that will only take server space. Besides, I searched and I found a lot of threads but noone that gave me any answers to my question.

If I make a mistake in this forum I'd appreciate if mods let me know.

//Phille
 
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