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Against my better judgement Tim I'm replying to you.

I really do think that you are trolling, you may argue that you're just putting a view forward which is exactly what you are doing but it's the way that you are putting that view forward which is getting folks backs up, have you ever read Viz*? You really do come over as a Mr Logic(*2) type and consistently fail to prove your statements, You may have a brain the size of a planet but it does look like you're lacking the "I reckon I'm flogging a dead horse" gene because if you did have it you'd have moved on by now.

I'm not going to give you more ammo for your Troll gun now so this is the last contribution from me so take your time to think up a smart reply to this knowing that I'm not going to be around to defend/argue...



*(it's a juvenile comic aimed at the youth to mid twenties market (but at 50 odd years old it still raises a titter or two from me))

*2 Mr Logic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I bid you good night Tim, take a pill and let it go!
 

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Against my better judgement Tim I'm replying to you.

I really do think that you are trolling, you may argue that you're just putting a view forward which is exactly what you are doing but it's the way that you are putting that view forward which is getting folks backs up, have you ever read Viz*? You really do come over as a Mr Logic(*2) type and consistently fail to prove your statements, You may have a brain the size of a planet but it does look like you're lacking the "I reckon I'm flogging a dead horse" gene because if you did have it you'd have moved on by now.

I'm not going to give you more ammo for your Troll gun now so this is the last contribution from me so take your time to think up a smart reply to this knowing that I'm not going to be around to defend/argue...



*(it's a juvenile comic aimed at the youth to mid twenties market (but at 50 odd years old it still raises a titter or two from me))

*2 Mr Logic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I bid you good night Tim, take a pill and let it go!
I am trying to give a sensible response Bolty.

But I do dislike forum Trolls who insult common sense contributions.

I appreciate the view that mopeds are under powered, and as a result dangerous.

I appreciate the view that pedal cycles follow no Highway Code known to mankind.

But I do object to folk who should know better suggesting poor road safety, and deriding those who advocate it.

This thread was discussing the safety of Moped riders.
 

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In fact I will go further again.

In urban areas with a 30mph limit, the most common, the bus will typically be travelling with an actual speed of 31 - 35 mph.
A bus in service can only do 28mph on urban roads.

The moped is going to be trailing the bus as he approaches.

Is he doing a forward observation to note the size of the queue at the bus stop?

If he lacks sight of this as he approaches can he see passengers stood at the front or rear of the bus embarking / disembarking?

This would at least afford a calculation of the risk of pulling around the bus.

The moped is likely to be trailing the bus at the near side kerb, so as he pulls put there are 2 risks, faster moving traffic on his offside, and the bus driver is unaware of him.
The bus driver has to be aware of push bikes overtaking on the off side, even with faster moving traffic.

I assume we are all aware that unless we can see the mirrors of a long vehicle they do not know we are there, and that as a scooter is low in height if we are close to the side of the bus it is difficult for the driver to see it?

So often you can pull out under acceleration without the driver being aware, dangerous for a moped. Yes?

The moped has one safe course of action, stop behind the bus and wait for it to move off.

A bus will not wait at a stop that obstructs the highway, only a stop in a lay bye.
A bus will wait at any stop regardless of its position if circumstances dictate.

.
if a push bike can get away with certain risky moves then a moped has the same chances.


Sent using Stumps.
 

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Generalissimo Tea Boy
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Everyone please refrain from insulting each other. Everyone is entitled to their opinions so if you could just state your various cases without name calling it would be appreciated.
 

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Should pull up behind the bus and wait unless it can pull out without impeding the flow of traffic and pass before the bus is ready to pull away.
If the bus is sitting there and not indicating to pull away, the moped rider can reasonably expect the bus to stay there and can safely pass the bus. Being somehow psychic is not a requirement of riding a moped (although it is a useful skill to acquire). When the bus is ready to pull away, the driver must indicate. The scenario here is that the bus driver fails to indicate to pull out and compounds this by failing to check for the presence of the moped. The bus pulls out and the moped is left with a decreasing gap.


Always give way to the bus.
Sorry, that's wrong.

Highway Code Rule 223
"Buses, coaches and trams. Give priority to these vehicles when you can do so safely, especially when they signal to pull away from stops. Look out for people getting off a bus or tram and crossing the road."

If the bus is pulling away from a standstill, the bus driver is the one that is required to be checking and giving way. Letting buses out is good practice if they are indicating their intention as it assists the flow of public transport but they do not have right of way when pulling out into traffic. What the Highway Code suggests in this case is best practice. It is not law that you always give way to buses regardless of right of way. In circumstances where they are indicating their intention to pull away from stops, you should give priority when you can do so safely. Waiting behind a bus just in case it may pull out is not something I've ever seen advocated anywhere in the Highway Code and certainly isn't included in any CBT syllabus I've ever seen. If the bus indicates, that's different.

This is not rocket science, and I am fully aware that without exception bicycles ignore all the rules
As soon as someone says "This is not rocket science" you just know their next utterance is likely to be complete and utter drivel.

In urban areas with a 30mph limit, the most common, the bus will typically be travelling with an actual speed of 31 - 35 mph.
I don't see the relevance of typical bus speeds when the bus in the scenario is not moving. Typically, buses do 0mph relative to the ground when stopped.

I assume we are all aware that unless we can see the mirrors of a long vehicle they do not know we are there, and that as a scooter is low in height if we are close to the side of the bus it is difficult for the driver to see it?
Low in height if we are close to the side of the bus? What sort of freak scooters do you have in Manchester? Elsewhere in the country they're generally a similar height to most cars and also run with headlight hardwired on to aid visibility. They also don't get lower when they get close to the side of a bus unless they've been crushed under it due to the driver pulling out without indicating or using sufficient observation.

The moped has one safe course of action, stop behind the bus and wait for it to move off.
So do you take this to its logical conclusion then and say he has one course of action that is safe and that is to stay at home? Don't the majority of accidents happen in the home? Maybe that's not a good idea then. If the bus is stationary and not indicating to pull out then the moped can quite legitimately pass the bus if there is sufficient space. So can a pedal cycle. So can a car or any other vehicle if there is room to do so safely. If a moped stopped behind a non-indicating stationary bus on a CBT and just sat there when there is space to go around it, you can bet their instructor would pull them up on it at debrief.

A bus will not wait at a stop that obstructs the highway, only a stop in a lay bye.
It will stop and it will "wait" while passengers get on and off and will obstruct the highway when doing so if that is how the road is designed. There are many examples of modern town planning that purposely places bus stops is such a way that the bus will obstruct the highway to prevent larger vehicles passing if there is oncoming traffic yet still enable cycles, mopeds and motorcycles sufficient room to pass unimpeded. I makes it easier for buses to pull out if the traffic has stopped behind them - but they still need to indicate and use appropriate observations.

The scenario, as it was presented involved a bus driver not following the highway code and not indicating or using appropriate observation to ensure the safety of other road users while rejoining traffic. The argument was that a restricted moped on the receiving end of this careless driving only has the option to stop and hope they don't get crushed rather than accelerate out of trouble. A moped rider should always make allowances for the lack of power and should ride appropriately. However, if some peckerhead isn't playing by the rules and they could do with that bit extra power to get out of the way, it just won't be there and that can arguably put them in a position where they are unable to take a course of action to eliminate the danger that they would have been able to do on a more powerful machine.

Personally, I don't see the root safety issue as being with the concept of the restricted moped itself, but with other road users attitudes and behaviour towards them. If the bus driver in this example was driving properly, it's a scenario that wouldn't happen.
 

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If the bus is sitting there and not indicating to pull away, the moped rider can reasonably expect the bus to stay there and can safely pass the bus. Being somehow psychic is not a requirement of riding a moped (although it is a useful skill to acquire). When the bus is ready to pull away, the driver must indicate. The scenario here is that the bus driver fails to indicate to pull out and compounds this by failing to check for the presence of the moped. The bus pulls out and the moped is left with a decreasing gap.



Sorry, that's wrong.

Highway Code Rule 223
"Buses, coaches and trams. Give priority to these vehicles when you can do so safely, especially when they signal to pull away from stops. Look out for people getting off a bus or tram and crossing the road."

If the bus is pulling away from a standstill, the bus driver is the one that is required to be checking and giving way. Letting buses out is good practice if they are indicating their intention as it assists the flow of public transport but they do not have right of way when pulling out into traffic. What the Highway Code suggests in this case is best practice. It is not law that you always give way to buses regardless of right of way. In circumstances where they are indicating their intention to pull away from stops, you should give priority when you can do so safely. Waiting behind a bus just in case it may pull out is not something I've ever seen advocated anywhere in the Highway Code and certainly isn't included in any CBT syllabus I've ever seen. If the bus indicates, that's different.


As soon as someone says "This is not rocket science" you just know their next utterance is likely to be complete and utter drivel.


I don't see the relevance of typical bus speeds when the bus in the scenario is not moving. Typically, buses do 0mph relative to the ground when stopped.


Low in height if we are close to the side of the bus? What sort of freak scooters do you have in Manchester? Elsewhere in the country they're generally a similar height to most cars and also run with headlight hardwired on to aid visibility. They also don't get lower when they get close to the side of a bus unless they've been crushed under it due to the driver pulling out without indicating or using sufficient observation.


So do you take this to its logical conclusion then and say he has one course of action that is safe and that is to stay at home? Don't the majority of accidents happen in the home? Maybe that's not a good idea then. If the bus is stationary and not indicating to pull out then the moped can quite legitimately pass the bus if there is sufficient space. So can a pedal cycle. So can a car or any other vehicle if there is room to do so safely. If a moped stopped behind a non-indicating stationary bus on a CBT and just sat there when there is space to go around it, you can bet their instructor would pull them up on it at debrief.


It will stop and it will "wait" while passengers get on and off and will obstruct the highway when doing so if that is how the road is designed. There are many examples of modern town planning that purposely places bus stops is such a way that the bus will obstruct the highway to prevent larger vehicles passing if there is oncoming traffic yet still enable cycles, mopeds and motorcycles sufficient room to pass unimpeded. I makes it easier for buses to pull out if the traffic has stopped behind them - but they still need to indicate and use appropriate observations.

The scenario, as it was presented involved a bus driver not following the highway code and not indicating or using appropriate observation to ensure the safety of other road users while rejoining traffic. The argument was that a restricted moped on the receiving end of this careless driving only has the option to stop and hope they don't get crushed rather than accelerate out of trouble. A moped rider should always make allowances for the lack of power and should ride appropriately. However, if some peckerhead isn't playing by the rules and they could do with that bit extra power to get out of the way, it just won't be there and that can arguably put them in a position where they are unable to take a course of action to eliminate the danger that they would have been able to do on a more powerful machine.

Personally, I don't see the root safety issue as being with the concept of the restricted moped itself, but with other road users attitudes and behaviour towards them. If the bus driver in this example was driving properly, it's a scenario that wouldn't happen.
Alan, you strike me as a guy who should know better.

The root cause is that moped rider, and cyclists for that matter, drive / ride, or expect to, beyond the design concept of the vehicle.

Other traffic should expect a slow moving vehicle to actually give way to them, and not impede their progress.

That's a statement of fact, slow down a commuter deliberately by pulling out in front of him and you create road rage, and you simply should not do it on a moped.

In the original scenario I still assert the moped is at fault, his observation should at least give him a clue the bus is ready to move away, and if less than 10 metres into his overtake the bus is moving that suggests he has not seen the moped, nor I assume a clear indication.

It's not the bus being careless, it's the moped.

And once the moped is past, in an urban area, and he is on a 30mph stretch with regular stay left traffic islands for pedestrians, on a 1 lane road, he is then impeding the progress of the bus through lack of safety and patience.

I stand by my assessment Alan, he should pull up behind and wait.
 

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Other traffic should expect a slow moving vehicle to actually give way to them, and not impede their progress.
Hmm. Right of way for the fastest; that's a novel concept.

I suggest that you buy a copy of Roadcraft, read it and apply the principles. You could hook up with your local IAM and check out options for RoSPA courses in your area too. That would give you the opportunity to debate endless scenarios far more complex that this in a productive manner with a range of educated, excellent and professional drivers including serving traffic officers.

I stand by my assessment Alan, he should pull up behind and wait.
I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.
 

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Craigypops
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In fact I'll go further.

I ride without risk.
That is one hell of a statement to make! I don't know many bikers who would make that claim.

I don't think I could step out of my front door without risk, let alone ride me bike on the public highway:clown:
 

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Hmm. Right of way for the fastest; that's a novel concept.

I suggest that you buy a copy of Roadcraft, read it and apply the principles. You could hook up with your local IAM and check out options for RoSPA courses in your area too. That would give you the opportunity to debate endless scenarios far more complex that this in a productive manner with a range of educated, excellent and professional drivers including serving traffic officers.


I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.
Hi Alan,

Unlike most I actually hold an advanced motorcycle license.

I also understand the Highway Code and the police system of observation.

Causing another vehicle to change direction or speed as a result of your manoeuvre is a dangerous fault on all vehicle tests.

Why you would assert that mode riders have special consideration is beyond me.

I could agree with your assessment Alan, but then I would care less.
 

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Alan, are you still arguing with this buffoon? He would probably argue the world is flat, because he's an idiot. Add him to yuor ignore list,the silence is golden. :)

I've always liked the Mark Twain quote, “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
Thank you for your cogent response.
 

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That is one hell of a statement to make! I don't know many bikers who would make that claim.

I don't think I could step out of my front door without risk, let alone ride me bike on the public highway:clown:
Safest form of transport in my opinion.
 

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Shameless edit, I thought you were misguided, alas you proved you are a cock
I didn't edit it to change the meaning in any way. You were expressing an opinion and stating that fact. I was merely pointing out with my response that you present lots of opinion but with little in the way of evidence to back it up.

Calling me crude names is just going to make you look somewhat foolish when I have been nothing but patient with you. Take the scenario back to your instructor or back to some other qualified advanced riders whose opinions you value. I''m not interested in debating with you further.
 

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I didn't edit it to change the meaning in any way. You were expressing an opinion and stating that fact. I was merely pointing out with my response that you present lots of opinion but with little in the way of evidence to back it up.

Calling me crude names is just going to make you look somewhat foolish when I have been nothing but patient with you. Take the scenario back to your instructor or back to some other qualified advanced riders whose opinions you value. I''m not interested in debating with you further.
Alan, I beg to differ, you offered Motorcycle Roadcraft, IAM and RoSPA as systems of motorcycle control which I was ignorant of and contradicted my assertion.

I responded that I was fully aware of all 3, and that all 3 would agree that any vehicle causing another to change speed or direction was at fault.

In the scenario under discussion the moped was doing just that.

So yes, I have taken you to task Alan, because, as I have commented before, if you must comment on an issue of safety or the Highway Code, keep it factual.

And you did also directly attack me, which, as I'm sure you now apreciate, I find hard to tolerate.

I'm off touring for a few days, why don't you spend some time riding also, maybe practice some of that technique you recommend
 

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Alan, I beg to differ, you offered Motorcycle Roadcraft, IAM and RoSPA as systems of motorcycle control which I was ignorant of and contradicted my assertion.

I responded that I was fully aware of all 3, and that all 3 would agree that any vehicle causing another to change speed or direction was at fault.
Talk to your instructor. Send him a link to the thread. Get his/her feedback.

So yes, I have taken you to task Alan
No, you called me a cock. That's just being rude and insulting.

And you did also directly attack me, which, as I'm sure you now apreciate, I find hard to tolerate.
Attack you? Really? I can't see anywhere that I have called you a cock or anything similar.
 

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Talk to your instructor. Send him a link to the thread. Get his/her feedback.


No, you called me a cock. That's just being rude and insulting.


Attack you? Really? I can't see anywhere that I have called you a cock or anything similar.
Alan,

I know my instructors, they would not disagree with me.

Bicycles and Mopeds pulling out into traffic are a constant danger to themselves and other road users.

We do of course make allowances, but every time they do so they disregard safety and, for the moped rider, if on test, fail.

Yes Alan, you did insult me, and you still are.

You are insulting not only my intelligence but your own, because I'm pretty sure you understand my point fully
 
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