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12K views 42 replies 10 participants last post by  Traveller 
#1 · (Edited)
Painting is one of the few things I've had little success with over the years. Wheels and such things I've used rattle cans and generally had a good enough finish but any sort of bodywork repair has been, to be frank, awful.

Not withstanding the above and the fact that a pro job would push the restoration cost to an unacceptable high I'm going to take on the painting of my old beemer but now at least I have some more tools and a decent heated workspace at my disposal.

I already have a 13cfm compressor with a big tank so air shouldn't be the problem but I will need an oil / moisture separator. I also have one of these cheap high pressure spray guns which I've used for all sorts including ACF50 so it would be prudent to buy a new one. Traveller has suggested a £15 jobbie off ebay but there are so many to chose from and I don't know where to start. I also see they have different nozzle sizes etc.

So questions
  1. Bearing in mind I'm on a limited budget what gun should I have?
  2. What nozzle(s) do I need. I need to spray both a colour coat and some sort of clear. Primer will come from a rattle can?
  3. Care to recommend an oil separator and do I need something that fits up at the gun end as my 10mm hoses are years old and although I have never used automatic oilers the compressor is oil lubricated?
  4. what about those mini regulators that go on the guns. Do I need one of these?
  5. Should I forget about all this compressor nonsense and just use good quality rattle cans (please don't suggest this I see new toys on the horizon)
And then there is the preparation process itself.
  1. The tank is currently rattle can black (no lacquer) over a professionally done yellow tartan (I assume he was a blind pro) what do I need to do to prepare that? How much do I need to remove?
  2. Similar story for the other plastics and the fiberglass mudguard. All dusted over with rattle can black. Do I treat them the same as the tank?
  3. Anything else I need to be aware of before I start with the credit card and sandpaper.
I know we are barely half way there as we still have the paint to apply but for now I'll leave it for now and await the wisdom of XRV to keep me right.
 
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#2 ·
Got to go to work but will contribute tonight. I will list the products I use to obtain the results like my daughters bike tank as pictured in your rebuild thread.
I think there is nothing that beats the satisfaction of seeing the finished paintwork you have done yourself.
I am in the process of coaching a work collegue through painting his Morris Minor pickup in light green celulose. He has been using my apollo spray (25 years old) and has now decided to buy one himself and go for a full paint job.
You really dont need to spend big money to get a very high quality finish. Pity you are in another country because it would be good to meet up and discuss.
 
#3 ·
Pop into your local Machine Mart and browse the catalogue and shelves. I find the staff down here are pretty knowledgable and helpful about the kit they sell. If you subscribe to their email service you will get frequent offers of 10% off or zero VAT which is useful for squirrelling away kit ready for jobs that are anticipated.
 
#4 ·
no pro but I do know that paints often react with each other and separate. Your rattle cans are mostly enamel and and 2 part paint is acrylic the latter wont go over the enamel so if in doubt get rid of it, then use the proper primer for the paint. I'd go for a 2 part paint, mix what you need using a parts scale or ruler, you can get drip funnels for mixing too to get the viscosity correct, it makes the spraying easier.
Preparation is the most important job as scratches will be magnified by painting over them. It's only paint, if you screw it up rub it down and try again. but it is soul destroying to see a perfect finish crackle away from the wrong undercoat or surface.
 
#5 ·
most guns will be ready to use as far as nozzles go, you can look into it way too much but basically as long as the compressor is man enough you can control the guns flow with the adjustments on the gun .
Practice is the main thing . I have been doing it for years and paint a lot using other people guns and equipment . The main skill is to watch the paint going on and not so much in the equipment .

As your tank is allready rattle can there is two things you can do :

If the tank is dent and chip free then it will just need a rub over with scotchbrite to key the surface and then give it a good coat of 3to1 filler primer. 3 to 1 filler primer is obviously 3 parts primer to 1 part hardener , it wont require thinners ( no reaction) so a dust coat and then another good coat will be sufficient. leave over night and then a rub over with 800 wet n dry and then start applying the colour

the other thing you could do would be to wipe all the rattle can paint off with thinners on a rag . it will all come off easy and take it down to the original paint . Then primer it as above ready for paint.

as for paints , if its just one flat colour then go for 2k acrylic , it covers well to a high gloss , cures fast and is fuel resistant. its what most vans are painted in these days .
if its something more intricate or a metallic then you just dust the colour on thinned down a bit untill its covered then you laquer it , basically laquer is the same as the 2k acrylic mentioned above.

basically you can buy all the best stuff and still be no good as the art is in watching the paint go on . practice practice practice

then you can get imaginative






and yes going into Dorothy Perkins and asking for fishnet stocking for a fat bird so i can paint my helmet was a bit embarrasing
 
#6 ·
most guns will be ready to use as far as nozzles go, you can look into it way too much but basically as long as the compressor is man enough you can control the guns flow with the adjustments on the gun .
Practice is the main thing . I have been doing it for years and paint a lot using other people guns and equipment . The main skill is to watch the paint going on and not so much in the equipment .
I get what you are saying but in essence something like a 1.2-1.8 nozzle is a good bet.


As your tank is already rattle can there is two things you can do :

If the tank is dent and chip free then it will just need a rub over with scotchbrite to key the surface and then give it a good coat of 3to1 filler primer. 3 to 1 filler primer is obviously 3 parts primer to 1 part hardener , it wont require thinners ( no reaction) so a dust coat and then another good coat will be sufficient. leave over night and then a rub over with 800 wet n dry and then start applying the colour

the other thing you could do would be to wipe all the rattle can paint off with thinners on a rag . it will all come off easy and take it down to the original paint . Then primer it as above ready for paint.
I was going to do the latter and wipe off the rattle can with thinners. There is one chip in the underlying tartan paint that I'll feather the edge down on. Then a rub down with a scotchbrite pad to provide a key.

What's your recommendations on filler primer I need? I see plenty in rattle cans but if I need to add hardener I assume I'll have to buy the primer and hardener separately. As this is a filler primer Iguess it's quite thick. Will the gun above cope?



as for paints , if its just one flat colour then go for 2k acrylic , it covers well to a high gloss , cures fast and is fuel resistant. its what most vans are painted in these days .
if its something more intricate or a metallic then you just dust the colour on thinned down a bit untill its covered then you laquer it , basically laquer is the same as the 2k acrylic mentioned above.
So does this 2K acrylic fill the needs of colour and clearcoat in one mix. DO I need to do any rubbing down between coats or do I just keep building up layer on layer till I like the result?
Do I need forced ventilation or just a mask?

Also the side cases and tailpiece are plastic and the mudguard looks to be some sort of fiberglass. Are they treated the same way?


and yes going into Dorothy Perkins and asking for fishnet stocking for a fat bird so i can paint my helmet was a bit embarrasing
You should have asked here first as there's one or two that would have jumped at the chance :)
 
#7 ·
First question I would say yes. ;) i dont know what nozzles I have in my guns and I use them for the above and also metal flake.

As for filler primer i have found Lechler green TI is my favourite if you can get it but most 2k ones are good . 2k is good because of less reactions and the hardener forces it to go off rather than just relying on evaporation. when its gone off best practice is to give it a dust coat of black 9just a dust though not a covering) then rub it down with 800. the black dust coat will sit in any chips or imperfections and show them up thus making it easier to get a nice smooth finish.


2k acrylic paint does fill the needs of both. but will mostly only come in a flat colour and not metallic . ideal if its just plain black/white/red / yellow , you get the idea. no rubbing down between coats and mostly only need a 2-3 light coats.. another good thing with this is if you get a run you can gently lay a bit of masking tape over the run( layed and not pushed on) and then pull it off slowly . the paint can then be applied again over to ensure a good colour and it can all be flattened off with 1500 a few days afterwards when its all hard and polished up.

there are probably all diffferent types of mask and all I can say is any mask is good , forced air masks obviousley have the air line going to them whcih means more line about to bang into the paintwork you are trying to do . I normally pull my T shirt over my nose. Not the best practice and not something I would recommend for health reasons , although I havent had a cold or flu in 6 years.

I did take my helmet into Dorothy perkins when I finished it to show that I wasn't a complete perv .
 
#8 ·
Brilliant... So in summary I need something like this for a gun

S701G Sealey Professional Gravity Gold Spray Gun | eBay (this gets good reviews)
or something cheaper like BERGEN HVLP Gravity Fed Spray Gun 600ml Capacity 1.4mm Nozzle 8 cfm 22 PSI | eBay

Then there are loads of smaller ones. Are they worth considering?

Then for paint I need (not searched for local suppliers yet just making sure I have the right stuff)

Primer
1.2lt Lechler Green-ti Fast Filler Primer + Hardener Kit - Primers - Paint mixed as above.

Top coat.
Gloss black 2K paint (will a litre be enough)
I assume a proper paint supplier can make this up to my colour needs. Then I add some hardener before I start to spray.

Now the spanner... As I was planning some vinyl pinstripes and I want to lacquer over them can I paint the primer and colour paint as above and then add vinyls and put a clear 2K "paint" over the top to protect the pinstripes?

Scotchbrite pads/ tackrags and for cleaning up will cellulose thinners be OK.

What about those little in-line regulators. DO I need one or can I regulate things at the tank. And again water separators any recommendations?

And a T shirt for over my nose. :)
 
#9 · (Edited)
either of those guns are fine , I have been using this Fast Mover Gravity Spray Gun 1.3 Nozzle TO CLEAR | eBay with no problems at all .

primer is good:thumbup:

righty ho now youve mentioned the pin stripes this is where this all might get confusing. using the 2k black mentioned above is great but overkill if your planning the pinstripes. and by the time you have the laquer on it will be too thick

so i suggest you use the primer as directed , smooth with 800 and the on to the black .

You can either buy just a basecoat black from a auto paint manufacturer which is air drying and will require thinning a bit . you can use your new spray gun for this , or you could use something like this Indasa Acrylic Professional Quality Paint - Gloss Black - Large 500ml Aerosol | eBay or carplan hycote but NOT simoniz.

your black is only going to be a "base" as the gloss and seal will come from the laquer, so just black it , doesent have to be gloss even , Ive used whatever I have so even matt black will do it , just make sure its all covered but only 2-3 light coats.

when thats gone hard ( leave it overnight) , wipe with a tack rag and then apply your coach lines. when thats done rub over with some grey scotchbrite and then tack again . then mix up the laquer and paint away , normally one mist coat and then a good coat , watching as it goes on to the point where it has a nice gloss and then bobs your uncle . it sounds confusing and daunting but feel free to ask away with any questions i dont mind.

as far as regulators and water traps I cant give any good recomendations as these are normally already installed and I have never had to buy any .

shame your not closer as I could come over and show you .
 
#15 ·
I'm slowly getting bits together and regarding water and oil traps any idea if something like this would be OK on the gun.

I could fit a big inline filter nearer the compressor but that would take some pipework and unless I buy a really big one restrict flow for my other tools. For the amount I'm spraying would this be easier and cheaper fitted up at the gun and if needs be change it more often.

Only if it works of course.



or



Any preference from those that have used them?
 
#17 · (Edited)
I have just bought the top one last week. I have a regulator filter on the wall that is fed by the compressor. I have never used one at the gun end before. Like JimJam pointed out you can see whats going on in there. There is a little schrader type valve that you press to drain it. I have never had any problems with moisture but I thought it would be interesting to see what it separates out, if anything.

Re gun and nozzle size. The larger the nozzle the more flow. A larger nozzle also handles the larger metal flakes and thicker primer fillers better.

A 1.2 is more than enought for bike bits. A pot that holds 500ml is about right, you want it small enough to get into corners but big enough to not need constant re filling.

I have a variety of guns, the most expensive is a DeVilbis JGA syphon feed (pot at the bottom) at around £250 now. Bought when painting was my buisness.

At the other end of the scale I have a small gravity feed 0.8 nozzle that was around £10 to£15 and I use it as a matter of choice for most of the bits I do. It was good enough to do clear over metalic base on the drivers door, rear wing and bootlid on an 18 month old Jag that passed scrutiny when it was returned at the end of a three year lease.

This is a pair Mini Jet HVLP Gravity Spray Gun Smart Repair Twin Pack Blue and Green Set | eBay on e bay.

This would be good, a SEALEY HVLP741 GRAVITY FEED HVLP CAR VEHICLE PAINT SPRAY GUN 1.3MM 600ML POT | eBay bit larger and more paint flow and a larger fan.

I have one of these but never used it yet, DeVilbiss SLG 1.3mm Spraygun. Top selling, great value | eBay I still grab the cheapo one. Its probably no better than the Sealy one above as far as the finished job goes but you would certainly not need any better.

The larger guns only come into their own when painting large panels like car bonnets or whole vehicles. They put out a larger fan so the paint edge can be kept wet and therfore flows together.

I fully agree with JimJams observations, he clearly knows what he is talking about. All I would add is I use a completly separate 1/42 airline for painting, fed from one of the regulator outlets and the other outlet is just for tools.

As far as paint goes, I would only use two pack in a professional setup, in a booth with extraction, air fed mask and coveralls. Its not worth suffering the health damage the isocyanate content causes. Asthma and permanant lung damage from inhalation plus skin absorbtion, other organs affected. It is definatly the best paint but the celulose based single pack stuff is far safer, more forgiving for a learner and very good anyway.

Look at the manufacturers safety data sheets.

I use disposable carbon filters masks and spray outside.

My sugestion for materials would be aerosol rattle can primer, half a litre of celulose paint, a litre of clear single pack (ie no hardner needed) a couple of litres of non bloom thinners or a 5 litre can.

I buy litre cans of thinners and 5 litre cans of gunwash (cheap thinner) good enough for washing off the current paint.
Buy all the paint from a factor, they will have aerosol primers that are suitable and dont react with the top coat. You will get a good result with this, the ability to flat and re coat celulose allows for error correctind if its too dry or you hang a few curtains (runs).

If I really want the two pack clear I go as far as paint, matt it off with fine wet or dry and take it to a local body shop who charges pin money and uses the leftover from a job they have allready mixed it for.

These observations are based on your learner status and your intent on keeping cost under control.

This youtube video that includes a bit about setting a gun up and spray patterns is usefull. Look at how much paint is laid down on the test patches just before one minute in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLH83B0Q2qE
 
#19 ·
Thanks, gentlemen. This is a very interesting thread....and if the weather ever improves I might be tempted to start painting my Land Rover (it's so old, the paint's been worn off in bits by the rain, I reckon!)
I think I'd need an awful lot of practice before I attempted to paint the bike ... but Land Rovers look OK even if they've been painted with a trowel ;)
 
#21 ·
You should see the bike now. Rattle can matt black over yellow tartan. I really dont think it could get much worse :)
 
#27 · (Edited)
Just looked at the link you posed to this gun S701G Sealey Professional Gravity Gold Spray Gun | eBay

That looks just right to me.
Oh well. I bought the other one. Hopefully I'll be fine.

I think for health reasons I feel happier going down the cellulose route over the two pack stuff but before I make a complete fool of myself at the paint supplier do I need to get gloss black or simply black (I guess there will be loads of black but I want "old bike black" :) ). In other words does all the gloss come form the clear coat or does the colour coat have a hand in it?

I'm too old to go in and ask for a left handed mallet or a long stand.

Oh and one more thing. Will this single pack clear coat be petrol resistant enough to cope with the odd splash at fill up time?
 
#28 ·
Big thanks to both JimJam and Traveller - oh and I s'pose Boris as well since he started the thread.:thumbright:

Excellent thread - I reckon it could even end up being a sticky :-D

Keep it coming...............
 
#30 ·
Re type of paint and clear. There is no need for clear. Black gloss will come up fine. Once the surface is prepared and primed key and de nib the primed surface by very lightly flatting off the surface with used 400 grade ( or finer) wet or dry paper and water with washing up liquid in it. Rinse with clear water and dry very thoroughly.
This knocks any surface lumps off and sets the scene for a deep gloss finish.
I use a couple of those cheap infra red floor standing semi rotating bar heaters to dry and warm surfaces.
When you are preping and flatting keep away from edges as you will be through to the bare metal in no time and loose the benifit of the original coating.
The paint process with celulose is one fairly light coat, leave to flash off (touch dry) then two more fairly good coats with flash off time between them. The idea is the first coat absorbs some of the solvent from the first coat allowing the paint to hold up better.

Once these three coats are dry, (use heater if possible to speed it up but not too close) flat the surface off with 800 wet or dry and doo the tripple coat again. Repeat for a third time, let it go off really hard and then polish by lightly flatting with 1200 grit paper wet and polish with Farecla fine compound.
You could then pinstripe but not put clear over it. They adhere really well. If you dont like the striping then warm up and peel off. Its only a couple of quid. Then try another look.
The black should shine fine.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Not like two pack. The Lechler clear that I use (see details in previous post) has never caused problems.


http://www.fishermotorfactors.co.uk/paint/lacquers/1lt-acrifan-1k-clear-lacquer

I tried to get to my daughters bike and photograph the tank as its the only example in my possetion still ( its at the back of a dark storage unit at the moment). It was painted five years ago using the Lechler stuff.
It will have had fuel on it a number of times during the 15 or so thousand miles it has covered since painting, no signs of deterioation.

Ps, I think your posts earlier are excellent, your comments on not worrying too much about gun and nozzel choice is spot on. Just get on and do it.

My observations re Boris project are about the most economical way of achieving very good results with minimum kit, experience or cost.

I dont do much painting now, it used to be my job. Now rather than buy 2k clear and hardner etc in the quantities it is sold in I drop the bits off at a local paint shop who uses the dregs in the gun after a job he is working on is finished.
 
#34 ·
its all practice though buddy , there are so many different ways of doing things and you can see on here different painters use different paints and techniques. Like I said earlier the main art is learning to watch the paint go on whatever you are painting and know what its going to do , once you have that sorted then the rest comes together. :thumbright:
 
#35 ·
Like I said earlier the main art is learning to watch the paint go on whatever you are painting and know what its going to do , once you have that sorted then the rest comes together. :thumbright:
You seem to be able to pass on so much usefull information in one sentence. Watch it going on and know what is going to do.:thumbleft:

I learnt to paint in the mid to early 1970s. Never stop learning realy. I attended technical college to get the qualifications, however I really learned the process from an experienced guy who had been painting for years.

Whilst I was Rush Rush Rush, he would put on the first coat of colour and go away for a *** or cup of tea. When he came back he would spray the doubble header coats.
Never got runs and always a good depth of colour.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Go to a paint factor, they sell striping tape, it comes in various widths and paint doesnt creep under the edge like can happen with masking tape, especially if you try tight curves. The different widths allow for tighter curves. Th stuff I use is a is a green coloured tape the stuff in the link is blue. Use it for the detail and use masking tape to cover behingd it. Masking tape is cheaper.

See this link. Tapes The blue tape is what I am refering to.

Or this from 3m http://www.3mdirect.co.uk/p-2252-3m...5m-roll.aspx?gclid=COnFyrqfuLUCFYfJtAod1hEAOA
 
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#42 ·
So using the example above do I have to paint the whole tank silver or just the general area under where the stripes are. I guess I'm asking will it show through (thickness or shade) if I just do the sides and don't go right up to and round the edges.
 
#43 ·
On fancy paint jobs you can lay down a base coat and top it with an even coat of another colour. You get the sheen of the base coat showing through.
Eg, a silver base with a metalic blue over will look different to the same blue paint over red a red base.
With what you are doing, assuming you are using black, it will obliterate the base coat so it wont matter if you only paint the potential stripe area.
 
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