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Sir FallofaLott
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5,060 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Ah, Ive just spotted a problem. I can only attach 5 documents max. When I deleted the previous attachments to upload the new ones, it broke the link to the earlier attachments.
Anyone got any ideas? Best way to to get the documents up here for reading and discussion.
Having read the 8 in so far, there's some very interesting and critically constructive feedback comming in - with some very interesting comments also being raised.
 

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Sir FallofaLott
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Discussion Starter #3
Had an idea. I'll collate all the responses on one page - now why didnt I think of that before :rolleyes: :D
 

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Sir FallofaLott
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Discussion Starter #4
Ive consolidated the answers Ive had back so far onto one document.

So far ten received and one returned to save in the proper format as I couldnt open it.
 

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A Scotsman....
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773 Posts
some good stuff coming back :thumbup:
 

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Fine, upstanding member
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2,296 Posts
I'd like to appeal to Dave for him to exercise some authority here.

Ethos:

TLD08 was intended to raise money by having a rideout. TLD09 and TLD10 are the same. Those who complain that TLD11 will be a money-raising venture a) are welcome not to come and b) are not prevented from organising a ride-out they do want to do.

Importantly, in order to raise money we need numbers. Too difficult a challenge will mean we raise less.

End point:

We need all to be in one place at the end but TLD can't take responsibility for organising accommodation and food. That was only necessary (so far as it was) because we were ending up in the middle of nowhere. Not only must the end be where there is plenty of accommodation but it needs to be accessible - so someone can erect the banner and be there when people arrive to congratulate them and make it obvious that people have arrived. If we ARE doing the Peaks then a hotel with a large car-park in Fort William would be ideal. I'd have done it myself this year but having got to Holyhead first, I wasn't about to get to Dingle first off the later ferry, plus I had a 125 to nurse for five hours.

The comment about a fanfare is difficult as people arrive over such a range of times.

Ferries:

We SHOULD break the journey. The fact that we had to use different ferries this year was down to the fact that the run was decided before anyone looked at the logistics.

Routes and route book:

In my opinion we HAVE to put a lot of the material in the road book to make the point that we are NOT responsible for how and where people ride. Speaking personally, I followed it to the letter and made very good time even with a 125 (Raymo's lot passed us three times!)

Briefing:

NO EARLIER than 9pm to allow people to arrive. The briefing should be at 9 and lights out at 9:30.

XRV or not XRV:

This question annoys me. This is an XRV event. Without Dave's server space it couldn't work and all the organisers are enthusiastic XRVers. If only 6 from TLD08 rode in TLD10 then I for one am not bothered. Plenty XRVers did ride and whether the total is disappointing or not, we WILL raise about £20k which is a Hell of a lot of money.

We need a lot more moderating of the threads (which I did in the last week having only just become a mod) and to make the TLD site work better.

Ordering:

No-one needs to tell us that the ordering was a nightmare. This year we need to price EVERYTHING and have an order form you can fill in online rather than having to print out and send. The troubles with the bank are now sorted. We are ready to roll.



Now, I said at the outset that I would like Dave to exercise some authority (which I know he does not like to do) but it is for this reason: I agree with the feedback that for TLD12 a small committee need to decide on the route which incorporates a) a good length, b) variety of roads, c) attractive end point, d) plentiful accommodation at the end, e) a mandatory stop, f) if a ferry is to be used, only one which is easily reached. That needs to go to the wider committee and then published, inviting people to join.

It is this approach I would like Dave to endorse.

We then need better co-ordination about the design and manufacture of merchandise, and better, earlier publicity amongst the biking community. 100 riders is no problem, provided we get the stuff out there early enough and it is eye-catching enough.
 

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Sir FallofaLott
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5,060 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Phil - explosive mate.

Slow down.

10 feed back forms have been received - lets wait and see what others have to say before formulating any response.

I am completely lost with your second last paragraph. What authority exactly do you want Dave to come in with?

To say it should be him and you that decide whats what and then you tell the rest of us?

Actually, you know what, I think the key lesson is for people to slow down and actually listen.

Lets get the feedback forms in and discuss them, and lets let the discussion on the ride run it's course.

We know the Charity - Ive informed MAWF we'll be fund raisiing for them next year - once we have a ride and a route that everyone on xrv feels theyve had a fair chance to discuss, we can get their website and publicity machine working for us along with our own.
 

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Sir FallofaLott
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Discussion Starter #8
Feedback from two more have been received.

Newer entries are at the bottom.

That's 12 forms return so far.
 

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A Scotsman....
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773 Posts
Phil,

Do you feel better now?

I am confused about the reference to TLD12, when TLD11 hasnt even happened / started

I am sure with MAWF help with publicity we will be okay and everything else will just fall in place.

We really need to let ride / route threads run its course.
 

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Fine, upstanding member
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2,296 Posts
I am completely lost with your second last paragraph. What authority exactly do you want Dave to come in with?
That the decisions should be taken by the committee and then sent out. Austin is not alone in pointing out that if you ask the forum you get a load of people who aren't going to participate saying what should happen. Already we have had two polls. One has been closed and the result published. One has been reopened. Neither poll had any sort of material upon which people could have decided (such as James 691 has now posted in favour of the Towers ride).

It is absolutely artificial for the committee to say that the process is democratic - remember last year's charity vote? And as there is a limit to the number of options, we have to exclude some anyway. But if we are to make it democratic, we need to begin with an explanation of what the ride has to have. Otherwise we will end up with more headaches which (and I entirely accept I may be wrong) I largely have to sort out. An example is the Berlin Wall to Hadrian's Wall. That's an Ironbutt event, not a TLD one.
To say it should be him and you that decide whats what and then you tell the rest of us?
Of course not. See above.
Actually, you know what, I think the key lesson is for people to slow down and actually listen.
Tom, I have been taking calls, PMs and e-mails for months and even without a single one of them I could tell you what went wrong with this year's event because I have been sorting things out. It is because I have been listening that I am so familiar with what has been said and what will be said. If I have spent less than 100 hours on this, I would be surprised.

But the riders are not always the best people to ask. Has anyone mentioned IT problems? They are absolutely key. Who is talking about the availability of accommodation? Not the riders: but it has to be thought about. Has anyone complained that 50 sets of decals were printed to begin with so the pressure was on to get them sold? No, because the riders didn't know.

Nick did excellent work towards the end to try to sort out the remaining decal/Tshirt problems and fingers-crossed those who never got any will not want a refund (I spoke to three who told me not to worry).

Barry saved the day with the return ferries using his excellent IT skills. WE COULD NOT HAVE HAD ANYTHING LIKE THE SUCCESS WE DID WITHOUT HIM. He also got the road-book together (which whatever anyone says, I regard as necessary for legal reasons) and though it did not take the amount of work suggested (I wrote the route and he cut and pasted the rest of the stuff which we edited together) looked good and worked well.

Because of my decision to get to Holyhead first (though I was on the second ferry) a lot of money was saved and I was greatly helped by Tickertyboo, Raymo and a few others to charm the hostel lady into waiting for the E200 we owe her.

Now Nick, Barry and I know about those issues and none of the riders do because we sorted it without them having to know.

Those of us who have been involved in this from the outset have not only been told about the problems but have had to sort them so far as possible, and have known more about them than anyone else.

I'll listen, Tom, but I am trying to tell you what I have been told for months and what we need to do about it.

I intend to say nothing more. I've got work to sort out, a baby on the way, my father will probably die this week, I have heard all the complaints by e-mails, on the phone, on the ride etc and I can't be @rsed with being pushed this way and that by people who are not going to put the work in (not a reference to anyone here). But I should be very surprised if the eventual conclusions are very different from my post in blue above.

Out.
 

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Sir FallofaLott
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5,060 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
That the decisions should be taken by the committee and then sent out. Austin is not alone in pointing out that if you ask the forum you get a load of people who aren't going to participate saying what should happen. Already we have had two polls. One has been closed and the result published. One has been reopened. Neither poll had any sort of material upon which people could have decided (such as James 691 has now posted in favour of the Towers ride).

It is absolutely artificial for the committee to say that the process is democratic - remember last year's charity vote? And as there is a limit to the number of options, we have to exclude some anyway. But if we are to make it democratic, we need to begin with an explanation of what the ride has to have. Otherwise we will end up with more headaches which (and I entirely accept I may be wrong) I largely have to sort out. An example is the Berlin Wall to Hadrian's Wall. That's an Ironbutt event, not a TLD one.
Which is why I reopened the polls. There was going to be a board split with many not happy at how rushed everything was and it's rediculous expecting riders to give due consideration to a ride for next year when they havent even left for this years ride yet. Now, with the polls reopened, the suggested rides and routes can be FULLY thought about and discussed, by everyone, and a much more informed vote made. It also gives people an opportunity to perhaps propose a ride/route no ones even thought about yet. But at the end of it no one can say we didnt give people time, or a fair crack of the whip to look at it from every angle. I think it's vital to involve the xrv forum in coming up with ideas, discussing them, voting on them - otherwise it takes it away from being an xrv event in my view.

I dont know why you think you'll be the only one that has to sort all the problems out - I understand from the ferries debacle and food debacle you were in the thick of it - but that's why Im saying we need to get all the feedback forms in and then step back and honestly look at the whole picture.

Why for example were we organising peoples return ferries? Tons of work and headache for you and Barry. Did we actually need to? Would riders have thought less of the event if they had to decide on their own ferry home? Last year we just gave people the discount code and let them sort themselves out. And that way no one is out of pocket.

Tom, I have been taking calls, PMs and e-mails for months and even without a single one of them I could tell you what went wrong with this year's event because I have been sorting things out. It is because I have been listening that I am so familiar with what has been said and what will be said. If I have spent less than 100 hours on this, I would be surprised.
You're not the only one Phil. And what I've been hearing and getting back leads me to conclude we were trying to take responsibility for, and do, far to much. Let's take a breather, wait, and read what comes in, but for me, we need to just keep it very very simple next year. Simple in the sense that, for example, if theres a eurotunnel involved, we get the discount code and let riders sort themselves from there. If there's accommodation, we research possibilities, give riders the information, and let them sort themselves from there.

But the riders are not always the best people to ask. Has anyone mentioned IT problems? They are absolutely key. Who is talking about the availability of accommodation? Not the riders: but it has to be thought about. Has anyone complained that 50 sets of decals were printed to begin with so the pressure was on to get them sold? No, because the riders didn't know.
Nick did excellent work towards the end to try to sort out the remaining decal/Tshirt problems and fingers-crossed those who never got any will not want a refund (I spoke to three who told me not to worry).
Decals, tshirts etc need to be relooked at this year. Last year I think everything was too rushed. We need to look at having an ordering and paying system that works with the click of a button. This year you were able to sustain a lot of outgoings on behalf of the event, but it's wrong that you should have to run the risk of being out of pocket. We need to have a system where stuff can be ordered as it's paid for, sources in the UK to make sorting problems easier, and riders pay up front.

Barry saved the day with the return ferries using his excellent IT skills. WE COULD NOT HAVE HAD ANYTHING LIKE THE SUCCESS WE DID WITHOUT HIM. He also got the road-book together (which whatever anyone says, I regard as necessary for legal reasons) and though it did not take the amount of work suggested (I wrote the route and he cut and pasted the rest of the stuff which we edited together) looked good and worked well.

Because of my decision to get to Holyhead first (though I was on the second ferry) a lot of money was saved and I was greatly helped by Tickertyboo, Raymo and a few others to charm the hostel lady into waiting for the E200 we owe her.

Now Nick, Barry and I know about those issues and none of the riders do because we sorted it without them having to know.
This is a good example of what I mean about taking on board what the feedback says - what's the point in a roadbook that noone uses, or finds useful, or that didnt have the one bit of information in it they wanted. I do several rallys a year, noone of them have a road book. I dont even sign a disclaimer on some. My entry is undertaking enough that I absolve all and any of any responsibility for anything that happens to me.
The road book was something that was done on the first ride. Many riders on that event had never been part of such an undertaking. We are three years down the road now. Do we need to be copying exactly everything from the first year? If people arent using stuff, why are we doing it? Youre the expert when it comes to the law, if theres something we need for legal reasons is there a simpler way to do this?

a baby on the way, my father will probably die this week,
Congrats on the baby :cool::cool::razz:

I'm very sorry to hear about your dad. :(

If there's anything anyone can do let us know - birth and death - bloody hell mate - talk about the extremes of emotion. We're probably better off talking on the phone than writing tons here that can come across as arguementative, whatever, as I don't always come across well in print [:p] but this comes with my best regards Phil.
 

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Sir FallofaLott
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5,060 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Post number 1 has been updated. Another feedback form received. Newest additions are at the bottom of each section. Thirteen received so far.
 

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Fine, upstanding member
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2,296 Posts
You will notice, Tom, that your post shows you already know what needs to change. We all do. But it really, really annoys me that there appears to be an assumption that this is news. The ferries out had to be booked centrally because inadequate thought was given to the route so we had only 30 spaces on the early ferry. Letting people book them would have meant riders who should have priority would not have got on it.

We tried to get a discount code for the return but because of the range of routes and times, Stena could not do it.

These will both be non-issues if we think about it in choosing the route.

The riders do not know this and you will not get it from feedback.

That is why the committee, not the riders, need to have the final word on the route.
 

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A Scotsman....
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773 Posts
That is why the committee, not the riders, need to have the final word on the route.
I do agree with this

all the rides are great ideas, but logictics and safety point of view, we need to take each one and look at the pros and cons, the threads about the rides are a good idea, as things we never thought will be brought to light, thus letting us make an informed decision on the which ride to do from all angles, logictics, publicty, safety....etc
 

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A Scotsman....
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773 Posts
Also the polls give us an idea of what the riders what to do
 

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A Scotsman....
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773 Posts
I thought that the polls where just to help guide us, not cast in stone

Yea / nae
 

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Sir FallofaLott
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5,060 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I thought that the polls where just to help guide us, not cast in stone

Yea / nae
It's a case of what my wife as been doing to me for the last 20 years. She learned very early on in our courtship the best way to get me to do what she wanted was to make me believe it was my idea. :D
 

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Matron
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12,080 Posts
just got back from Germany and I have to be honest I'm extremely disheartened by all of this, both 2010 and the debarcle that is becoming 2011.

I have been involved in organising TLD since it's beginning, and the posts here, and there is also posts in the moderators forum that make me reluctant to be involved further.

It has become over-organsised and far too complex, and it is moving far away from what it was at the start, which was a ride amongst friends to raise money for a good cause.

I dont particularly like what it has become.
 

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Fine, upstanding member
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Well that's not right, is it Sharrie? Because we didn't think enough about this year's run we were backed into having to arrange accommodation and ferries.

Provided we get the route right next year, TLD will
  • design Tshirts and decals
  • suggest start and end points
  • set up a one-stop shop for registration and ordering
  • work with MAWF to try to maximise fund-raising
  • er...
  • that's it!
What's over-organised about that?! :thumbup: :D
 

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one of the lost boys
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6,127 Posts
Sorry Sharri,
you have been greatly involved, but unfortunatly you have only seen the bickering and problems.
All of those who went on 2009 and 2010 enjoyed themselves, the nature of the ride and having a bit of social required accomodation being sorted out in advance, Dingle is about as remote an area you'll likely to find, without the bunkhouse the participants would have struggled to find a bed nearby. we tried to help but in doing so some felt we over organised, I personly dont think we did, it just died under the shear weight of all the posts and change arounds.

Your knee held you out of the past rides and you helped with being the most valuable part in the ride, the link and coms, but for the TLD2010 you decided to do your own thing and not take part, so to say you dont like what it has become is unfair, you've not seen what it has become.

The bickering needs to sorted out away from the public side of the forum, then decisions need to be posted on the website. All the info required was there but hardly no one looked instead they trawled through thousands of useless threads that just confused the matter.

And Philip, sorry your talking ****e, we did think about this years run and we were NOT backed into doing anything, as stated above the end in Dingle needed accomodation which was sorted out last AUTUMN.

rant over, can we play nicely again
 
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