Honda XRV Forum banner
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
XRV750 RD04
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been having a bit of a nightmare getting some screws and bolts out of my fork sliders and managed to shear off a bolt head trying take it out of that plastic plate that connects to the forks and runs under the clocks etc.

Tried everything I can think of, slow pressure build up, shocking them, wd40 and leaving them to soak. I think the only way I'm going to get them out without shearing the rest of them off is to use one of those bolt extractor kits.

Someone told me to be careful with them though as if one of those snaps off inside I'm going to have even more of a problem.

Does anyone have any experience with these, or which ones to buy (or any other suggestions to get them out). I've noticed some kits on ebay but they all seem much the same and around the same price son not sure if they're all cheapo ones that are likely to break, or which might be better than others.

I guess I'll need one to at least get the one out that I've sheared off.

I know they could be drilled out and the threads retapped, but I think that might mean dismantling the forks, and as I'm ready to start rebuilding the bike now after having it apart for weeks I'm really reluctant to do that (starting to get me down a bit now and I just want the thing put back together again).

Any ideas?
 

·
Nexus 6
Joined
·
1,320 Posts
We use a set made by 'Rigid' at work - small red box with drill guides and hardened splined rods over which a collar fits that you turn with a spanner once the rod has been hammered into the hole drilled with the guide. Easy enough to use, but prone to snapping off and then you obviously have a whole new problem on your hands.... We also use 'Easy-Out' - a tapered left-hand threaded cone shaped object that you screw into a hole drilled into the offending stud - as its lefthand thread, as it screws in and tightens due to the taper, it should cause the stud to turn in its normal directon and come out. These work better than the other kit, but are expensive and they too can snap off.

In variably which ever way you do it if its on alluminium parts, the reason for the thing being stuck in the first place is due to corrosion and as the stud comes out it usually brings whats left of the thread with it meaning you have to re-tap the beggar anyway!

Good luck with it - just make sure you 'Copper-slip' * or stud-lock everything on its way back together or you'll be doing it all over again next time round!

*= Other copper based lubricants are available.
 

·
XRV750 RD04
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
We use a set made by 'Rigid' at work - small red box with drill guides and hardened splined rods over which a collar fits that you turn with a spanner once the rod has been hammered into the hole drilled with the guide. Easy enough to use, but prone to snapping off and then you obviously have a whole new problem on your hands.... We also use 'Easy-Out' - a tapered left-hand threaded cone shaped object that you screw into a hole drilled into the offending stud - as its lefthand thread, as it screws in and tightens due to the taper, it should cause the stud to turn in its normal directon and come out. These work better than the other kit, but are expensive and they too can snap off.
Thanks for the pointers. I've been looking at those easy out kits on ebay.

My main worry with these is like you say, that they might snap off, then I'll end up with a bit of hardened steel or something stuck in there that's even harder to get out. I guess they might be worth a try though and hope for the best.

In variably which ever way you do it if its on alluminium parts, the reason for the thing being stuck in the first place is due to corrosion and as the stud comes out it usually brings whats left of the thread with it meaning you have to re-tap the beggar anyway!
I was wondering if that might have been part of the problem (the steel/aluminium reaction I've read about here). Hadn't thought that it might take out the thread and need retapping anyway though.

Starting to wonder if it might be just as easy to try and retap it anyway.

Most of them I want to get out the screw heads at least don't look in too bad condition, though I guess this doesn't really indicate what's going on under the surface. Maybe I should just leave those ones alone. The only reason I wanted those out really was so I could give the mudguard a propper clean and polish up the forks and lacquer them so might just leave them (you can't see them that well behind the fork protectors anyway).

The two under that plastic plate at the top are really badly rusted though and I've already sheared one of those off. Sods law that they'll be the most difficult to get to with a drill without dismantling the forks as well.


Good luck with it - just make sure you 'Copper-slip' * or stud-lock everything on its way back together or you'll be doing it all over again next time round!
*= Other copper based lubricants are available.
Thanks. I've heard that stuff mentioned before but never got around to buying any. I think I'll try to get some of that today for when I start putting the other bits back on the bike. I don't fancy going through all this again in the future (though hopefully the stainless bolts I've just had delivered will help a bit in some places at least - though I know I can't use those everywhere).

Thanks again for your help. Much appreciated :)
 

·
XRV750 RD04
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Is this the copper slip stuff everyone mentions? (says in the add it's often spelt differently but not sure if that's just to sell these tubes):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Molyslip-Copa...ryZ43120QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Thats lead free stuff. Does anyone know if the leaded stuff is better?

There seem to be lots of other copper greases on ebay, but not sure which ones are good and which aren't so good (or are they all much the same)?

Ebay would be best for me as I've got some money in my paypal account at the moment doing nothing, so if I buy from there it'll be helpful.
 

·
Nexus 6
Joined
·
1,320 Posts
Cant look at E-Blag at work - stops us getting tempted to sell of our bits of the defence bugjet and stuff, but, if its made my molyslip then its the right stuff - its basically any form of copper grease you want - any normal grease would do the same job, its just that coppaslip tends to cling more and is better at withstandinf washing off and stuff.

Or as in my orginal post you could use stud-lock - Loctite being the make of first choice.

All either of them are doing is forming a seperating layer between the 2 components which helps slow up the dissimilar metal corrosion which is helped along by dampness and so rife in bikes as they are more open to the elements than cars. I prefere to use Loctite for a great deal of things as its more 'shake-proof' than coppaslip and is easier to work with due to the way it's packaged and the fact that its very liquid and easy to wash off. Though having said that - I have a 'pritt-stick' shaped/sized tube of Loctite C5-A on my desk. Its coppaslip that applies just like a pritt-stick - same consistancy and everything. Great stuff. (always make an effort to get along with your local loctite rep - freebies are niiiiiice!)
 

·
nunquam scienter utilis
Joined
·
665 Posts
Heat is the best thing for getting rust bolts out - but you may have to heat it more than is good for it (there's a risk that distortion can occur).
If all else fails, you can take it to an engineering place, and get them to use spark erosion on it. that *WILL* shift/disolve it. But it will take time - usually a couple of days. I've only had to use it once, many lifetimes ago, so I've no idea about cost, but it's going to be cheaper than a new fork leg.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
204 Posts
Don't do it. I tried getting an exhaust stud out once using an easy-out type extractor. They sure snap easy. If this happens, they are too hard to drill out and, as fatowl says, it is spark erosion time.


If the stud/screw/bolt is soft enough to drill for an extractor, it will also be easy to drill and tap. All you need to know is the thread size, most likely M5, M6 or M8x1.25 on a modern m/cycle. Go to a tool shop, buy the correct drill size for the thread or a gnat's smaller and drill square and as close to dead centre as you can for the depth of the stuck bolt. It may come out even before you have finished drilling, but if not you will likely be able to pick the remnants out once the hole is made. Failing this, get a bottoming tap and, provided you drilled with the correct drill and not slightly smaller, you can tap out the bolt remnants which will come out as swarf.

Exhaust stud on Suzook Katana - snapped extractor - head off for spark erosion - much cost and inconvenience.
Exhaust studs on XBR500 drilled out as described above - complete success for about £10.
 

·
XRV750 RD04
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the replies guys. It was made by molyslip. I didn't realise you'd already replied here but went ahead and got some anyway (figured if I didn't use it for this it'd come in handy for something). Glad I've got the right stuff :) I'll wait for that to be delivered before I start bolting things back together again.

I'm a bit wary about using heat as unfortunately some of the screws are on the plastic fork protectors (so they'd probably melt), and the other ones holding the plastic plate on even if I get the plastic plate off to avoid it melting, I'm a bit worried about it transmitting heat to the fork seals or something and making them fail.

I might be completely wrong about that. I've never dropped or stripped forks before and haven't had bikes for long so still a bit of a newbie (though keen to do as much as I can myself to learn).

Thanks for the advice about the screw extractors. I think I'll give those a miss as knowing my luck (and my newbie skills) I'll likely break one off in there.

Sounds like drilling and tapping is going to be the way to go, but not sure I'd be able to get in there under the plastic plate with a drill to go in completely straight. Should work better for the screws holding on the mudguard and for protectors though I think so I might give one of those a try first as they're easy to get at and see how it goes.

I think the screws holding the splash plate on (if that's what it is) are m6 by the looks of things, but not sure about the ones holding the fork protectors on. I think they're probably in the microfiches here so I'll have a look.

I've never heard of spark erosion. I'll try to avoid that, but it's helpful to know about for the future (just been looking it up).

I'll have another look tomorrow when the suns out (fingers crossed) and hopefully I'll be able to remove the lights or clocks easy enough to get into those holes at the top of the forks to drill them out.

Thanks again for all your help guys. Much appreciated. You might have just saved me a lot of heartache and expense by the sounds of things :)
 

·
Complete Member
Joined
·
3,904 Posts
Not sure which screws you mean, but as a general principle if it's a through hole then drill through and tap out, if you can drill close to the "core" size for the thread then you will end up with a spiral coil of metal that you can pick out and then just run a tap through to clean up.

If it's a "blind" hole then it's a bit more tricky, you can do the same, but as you break through the botom of the screw back off immediatly or you'll sink right through the bottom of the aluminium hole.

If there's a bit of the thread poking out try cutting a slot in it with a junior hacksaw and shock it undone with an impact driver with plain screwdriver bit, or screw a nut on and weld it on the inside to the thread, then use a spanner/ socket to undo.

The best thing to undo stuck threads is Plus-Gas, WD40 is Ok, but not as good, 3-in-1 penetrating oil is also pretty good.

Don't use Loctite "Studlock" unless you never want to take it apart again, you can use "Threadlock" this forms a barrier like Simmo said and comes undone fairly easy, however niether are lubricants, Coppaslip or other copper greases are good, but the Molyslip you picked up is best, this contains Molybdinum Disulphate, big words for "some stuff slippier than graphite and sticks like $h*t" and is best for keeping the water out and lubing the threads, use it (sparingly) on everything you might want to take apart again, but keep well clear of brake pads :rolleyes:
 

·
XRV750 RD04
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Not sure which screws you mean, but as a general principle if it's a through hole then drill through and tap out, if you can drill close to the "core" size for the thread then you will end up with a spiral coil of metal that you can pick out and then just run a tap through to clean up.
Thanks. The hole that I've sheared the bolt off is a thru hole. It's one of the two bolts that hold what looks like a flat plastic splash plate to the fork braces just below the clocks and lights.

I think if I can take the lights off I should be able to get in from the top to drill those out, then get a tap in from underneath to rethread them (I'll try to get someone to help me with that as that's the first time I'll have done it - guessing they need to be threaded in the same way the bolt goes).

If it's a "blind" hole then it's a bit more tricky, you can do the same, but as you break through the botom of the screw back off immediatly or you'll sink right through the bottom of the aluminium hole.
Thanks. I think the screws holding the fork protectors on are blind if my memory is correct, so I'll keep that in mind. I'll have another look tomorrow.

If there's a bit of the thread poking out try cutting a slot in it with a junior hacksaw and shock it undone with an impact driver with plain screwdriver bit, or screw a nut on and weld it on the inside to the thread, then use a spanner/ socket to undo.
Thanks. The one I've sheared off has snapped inside the hole unfortuantely. This idea might help with the fork protector screws though. I've tried to be careful not to round off those when undoing them (though it's started to do that). If I'm going to end up having to drill them out anyway I'll give it another good try though and try cutting a slot in them and giving them another go if I round the cross head off.

It surprised me that they were as stuck as they were as the heads on those ones look in pretty good condition and the other ones came out OK and the screws look OK. They're well and truly stuck though as attempts to unscrew them by hand got nowhere, trying to shock them just resulted in the metal giving around the cross head, and when I tried a drill in reverse on them the drill wasn't powerful enough to move them and just stood still.

The best thing to undo stuck threads is Plus-Gas, WD40 is Ok, but not as good, 3-in-1 penetrating oil is also pretty good.
Thanks. I wasn't aware of plus-gas. I'll have a look for some of that on ebay. Thanks for the tips :)

Don't use Loctite "Studlock" unless you never want to take it apart again, you can use "Threadlock" this forms a barrier like Simmo said and comes undone fairly easy, however niether are lubricants, Coppaslip or other copper greases are good, but the Molyslip you picked up is best, this contains Molybdinum Disulphate, big words for "some stuff slippier than graphite and sticks like $h*t" and is best for keeping the water out and lubing the threads, use it (sparingly) on everything you might want to take apart again, but keep well clear of brake pads :rolleyes:
Thanks. Good to hear I've bought the right stuff :)
 

·
nunquam scienter utilis
Joined
·
665 Posts
Just a quick thought - have you tried an impact driver? They can be very effective.
 

·
XRV750 RD04
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Just a quick thought - have you tried an impact driver? They can be very effective.
Thanks for your reply :)

I haven't tried an impact driver yet. I don't have one to hand and haven't used one before. I tried using a socket and giving it a good firm tap with a hammer, and tried an electric drill in reverse and didn't have much luck with those, so not sure if an impact driver would help.

Funny enough I was looking at impact drivers on ebay last night, and wondering about one of these things:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/QUALITY-13-PI...ryZ30917QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Are these the sorts of things that you're talking about? I think with those you just use a socket and give them a tap with a hammer as well, but not sure what advantage they offer over what I've already tried. Is there some sort of mechanism in them that transmits the power better or makes it more of a shock?

I notice there's a lot of cordless electric impact drivers for sale as well but I'm reluctant to splash out well over a hundred quid for one to free just a handful of bolts, and in my limited experience with regular cordless electric drills the cheaper home diy ones seem completely rubbish and lack power compared to the more expensive professional tools so I'm reluctant to get a cheaper one and find it's usless as well.

I know a carpenter who's done some building work who has a ton of tools and some expensive cordless drills, so I might give him a bell today and see if he's got anything that I could borrow for an hour to give it a try. Not sure if he has an impact driver though, it might be worth a try.

Do impact drivers do a much better job than just tapping a socket yourself, or is it just a case that they let you get a better hold on the screw head?
 

·
XRV750 RD04
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Ahh..Just looked it up on wikipedia. It looks like there is a mechanism in there that increases torque. Do you know if those hand held ones are much good, or am I likely to get better results with an electric one. I'm tempted to try one of the hand held ones as they're a lot cheaper.
 

·
nunquam scienter utilis
Joined
·
665 Posts
The ebay jobbie is the thing I'm talking about. You can get them in tool shops around the £10 mark. To use it, put the approp socket on the end, put it on the bolt, ans turn it anti-clockwise AS HARD as you can by hand, then hit it on the end with a heavy hammer. The mechanism inside the driver will give a sudden sharp shock to the bolt, and should jar it free. I've used it many times on bolts/screws I couldn't get undone by ordinary spanners/screwdrivers. If the bold head is starting to round, used a hacksaw (full size, not junior for choice), and cut a slot in the bolt head wide enough for one of the screwdriver bits.
BTW - a good quality one will last you years. I got mine in 1976. If you get a cheap nasty one the bits can break up.
 

·
Complete Member
Joined
·
3,904 Posts
guessing they need to be threaded in the same way the bolt goes
No it doesn't matter which side you tap from, it's more important that you do it from whichever side you can get best access to keep the drill and subsequently the tap square to the hole.

Impact drivers, yes Fatowl's right on the ball, I've got one from about the same era, the hand held ones are fine, but make sure you support whatever the screw's in so you don't bend anything, a good short rap with a lump hammer works much better than 20 wellies with an ordainary hammer.

Again keep it square and pressed firmly into the screw (and watch your fingers :rolleyes:)
 

·
XRV750 RD04
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
No it doesn't matter which side you tap from, it's more important that you do it from whichever side you can get best access to keep the drill and subsequently the tap square to the hole.
Thanks mate. I didn't know that. I think it'll be easier to get in from the top if I remove the clocks and lights (was planning to do that anyway to fit led bulbs and give the light surrounds a lick of paint anyway so it'll kill two birds with one stone as they saying goes).

Impact drivers, yes Fatowl's right on the ball, I've got one from about the same era, the hand held ones are fine, but make sure you support whatever the screw's in so you don't bend anything, a good short rap with a lump hammer works much better than 20 wellies with an ordainary hammer.
I didn't realise they worked so much better. Definitely seems like it's worth a try then.

Do you think one of these would be OK :

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/16735/Automotive/Mechanics-Tools/Impact-Driver

I think it might be a bit cheaper to get it locally then I'm not paying the postage, but screwfix is the only place I know of that's close by where I might be able to pick one up. That one looks a bit cheap though.

I might be able to get a lend of one to try though so I'll ask around first.

Again keep it square and pressed firmly into the screw (and watch your fingers :rolleyes:)
Will do. I'll try to get hold of one a bit later today (work allowing) and give it another try :)
 

·
XRV750 RD04
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The ebay jobbie is the thing I'm talking about. You can get them in tool shops around the £10 mark. To use it, put the approp socket on the end, put it on the bolt, ans turn it anti-clockwise AS HARD as you can by hand, then hit it on the end with a heavy hammer. The mechanism inside the driver will give a sudden sharp shock to the bolt, and should jar it free. I've used it many times on bolts/screws I couldn't get undone by ordinary spanners/screwdrivers. If the bold head is starting to round, used a hacksaw (full size, not junior for choice), and cut a slot in the bolt head wide enough for one of the screwdriver bits.
BTW - a good quality one will last you years. I got mine in 1976. If you get a cheap nasty one the bits can break up.
Thanks. I didn't realise you wound them up like that. That makes sense and explains why it'll work so much better than just belting it. Definitely going to give this a try. Thanks for the pointers :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
before you start bashing things with a hammer, remember that HEAT is your friend - go buy a minature blow torch from b&g (the jobbie for soldering, but with a naked flame option). if it helps, drill a hole in the bolt to help the heat get into the threads. try to get it glowing cherry red. mask surrounding areas with a wet rag.
i have found hammering in torx bits is useful, then use a T bar on the end of a socket, and wiggle the broken stud forward and backwards. if it breaks you can always punch it could with a pin punch from the opposite side. the extractors which twist give more of a problem if they break off.
be patient, use lots of heat, and repeat.
eventually the bolt will come loose. retapping is the final option, but can cause problems if the hole you drill is not perfectly central and square with the existing thread. you can end up with a retapped hole where the thread goes off at an angle.
 

·
XRV750 RD04
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
before you start bashing things with a hammer, remember that HEAT is your friend - go buy a minature blow torch from b&g (the jobbie for soldering, but with a naked flame option). if it helps, drill a hole in the bolt to help the heat get into the threads. try to get it glowing cherry red. mask surrounding areas with a wet rag.
I don't think that's an option with some of them unfortunately as they're holding on plastic parts (fork protectors) so they'll probably melt. I came across some freeze spray online that I was thinking about that seems to serve the same purpose (break the seal between the thread and bolt), but not sure if that'll cause the plastic to crack or something (achieves minus 47C temperature I think it said). Might give that a try if I don't have any luck with plusgas and an impact driver (going to pick those up tomorrow all going to plan).

i have found hammering in torx bits is useful, then use a T bar on the end of a socket, and wiggle the broken stud forward and backwards. if it breaks you can always punch it could with a pin punch from the opposite side. the extractors which twist give more of a problem if they break off.
be patient, use lots of heat, and repeat.eventually the bolt will come loose. retapping is the final option, but can cause problems if the hole you drill is not perfectly central and square with the existing thread. you can end up with a retapped hole where the thread goes off at an angle.
Thanks. That might work with one of the bolts at the top. The other one alongside it I fear may need to be retapped though as I've sheared it off inside (though I think I can still get to it from the top so maybe I could drill a little hole in it and hammer a torx bit in there from the top).

I'll give all the other things a try to begin with then if that doesn't work I've got a tap set now that I should be able to use in the worst case. Just hope it works. It's really frustrating not being able to ride the thing. I thought I was flying the first couple of days when I started dismantling it but it's all the little things like this that take up the time. I'll definitely be making sure I put copaslip on everything when I put the new bolts in. Don't think I'd like to go through this again (should count my blessings I guess as it could have been much worse - at least I only have a few bolts to contend with).

Thanks again for your help and advice :)
 

·
XRV750 RD04
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Just a quick update to this thread, and to say thanks again to everyone that helped.

I managed to free both the bolts going into the fork braces under the lights by drilling out from underneath with an electric drill and a small bit. As I was drilling and it was a thru-hole, they just unscrewed themselves as I was drilling through it so the threads are still OK.

The other fork bolts have been left for a while, but yesterday picked up an impact driver from screwfix (was only about £6 or something) and couple of whacks with a hammer and all 4 of them came loose no problem :) Threads and bolts don't look in bad condition, and I could see some traces of coppaslip on the ends so not sure why they've stuck so badly in the first place, but they're out now which is the main thing :)

The impact driver was a bit of a revelation, and sure looks like it's going to be a helpful tool to have around :)

Thanks again guys.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top